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Post by Glenn Curtis on Jul 8, 2023 19:53:56 GMT
As someone who did actually watch the show when it was on I can say that I really enjoyed it at the time. Why you may ask; well it was the music.
Never once did I think that anyone was being mocked.
Should it be shown now? No.
Should all copies be destroyed? Absolutely no. It is part of TV history and history should never be erased.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 8, 2023 21:11:50 GMT
The problem is that with TB&WMS the inference is mockery at another race's expense. This is unacceptable to this day. Why look for a clip that contains such mockery? For one, you could confirm if your assumptions are correct or not. I looked up a show ages ago to see "what all the fuss was about". The alternative is that you argue the case without any first hand knowledge. It's just a weird footnote in TV history now. I very much doubt if this is what white suppremacists spend their evenings watching. Let's face it, your outrage is half a century too late. You want to ban something, that not only you never watched, but that no-one is watching on any platform, except for a few grey area videos that people check out from sheer curiosity. (In fact, you're probably only making MORE people look for it now.) The outrage was at the time. Complaints from '63 onwards.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 8, 2023 21:13:02 GMT
As someone who did actually watch the show when it was on I can say that I really enjoyed it at the time. Why you may ask; well it was the music. Never once did I think that anyone was being mocked. Should it be shown now? No. Should all copies be destroyed? Absolutely no. It is part of TV history and history should never be erased. Glad to read you don't think it should be shown today.
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Post by John Wall on Jul 8, 2023 21:53:31 GMT
Things often go in phases, I’m thinking of things like nudity and violence, and those making shows tend to be aware of the current sensibilities.
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jul 8, 2023 22:03:21 GMT
I love to hear anybody who thinks this should be preserved stand up before a 2023 TV audience and say this and show clips from it to them. See the reaction. Here is a quote from Whoopi Goldberg: This is why programs like this should be preserved. To erase it from history would be the same as to say " that they never existed". The reaction of the 2023 audience should not be a positive one, that is the entire point. To quote whoopie Goldberg again, It "reflects a part of our history that cannot and should not be ignored." Do you really want to doom our future generations to potential racism, because they had no concept of what it was from the past to teach them right from wrong?
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Post by John Green on Jul 8, 2023 23:20:17 GMT
Sadly, there seems an increased tendency these days to divide the world into the Elect and the Unelect. Anyone who puts a foot out of place is a very Devil. I have to admit that I love it when eco-activists are revealed to be keen on gas-guzzling trips to the four corners of the world. Most people are complicated. George Formby went Blackface in No Limit when he was disguising himself as a seaside minstrel (rather than a Black man). But..." When George Formby went to Apartheid era South Africa in 1946, he could not understand why he was playing only to white audiences, he decided to refuse to play to racially segregated audiences, and went to the townships to play to the black populations in their own villages. They loved him for this, cheering him on. The National party leader at the time Daniel Malan berated him, eventually expelling Formby from the country. Beryl Formby told Malan "Why don't you .... off, you horrible little man". www.facebook.com/RebelCityNewspaper/photos/a.1657890734246316/1824074760961245/?type=3&paipv=0&eav=AfZfpOYuVuTg7-krzaYWq1o6LYuOM1i6v_NY9w18W4z6Q2gMxl8oPhK4jrGcIp1auIc&_rdrIn his last film, 'George in Civvy Street', also in 1946, he performs with a band which includes a Black drummer. Is he still a knuckle-dragging fascist/Nazi? I don't think so.
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Post by Rob Moss on Jul 9, 2023 0:30:06 GMT
No one has the right to say whatever they want in someone else's house. If you still believe differently. please let me know your address and with my "freedom of speech" I'll play some 19th century music on crackling 78rpm record recordings. that will give you an amazing experience This is not someone else's house, this is a forum. It's an absolutely pointless thread, this one. It's been established that the musical Daleks clip is missing, no-one has any photo record of it. No-one can add anything to the original query. Job done. Now can we please lock this thread so that the TB&WMS subject can be re-buried. Lock the thread and leave it, just like the show has thankfully been. Thanks for your input, Andy, but this thread will remain unlocked unless the admin team decide otherwise. In the meantime, you can stop demanding that any programme, offensive or otherwise, be wiped. In case you hadn’t noticed, this forum is all about recovering missing material, not adding to it.
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Post by Rob Moss on Jul 9, 2023 0:33:43 GMT
Should all copies be destroyed? Absolutely no. It is part of TV history and history should never be erased. This.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 9, 2023 6:54:09 GMT
I love to hear anybody who thinks this should be preserved stand up before a 2023 TV audience and say this and show clips from it to them. See the reaction. Here is a quote from Whoopi Goldberg: This is why programs like this should be preserved. To erase it from history would be the same as to say " that they never existed". The reaction of the 2023 audience should not be a positive one, that is the entire point. To quote whoopie Goldberg again, It "reflects a part of our history that cannot and should not be ignored." Do you really want to doom our future generations to potential racism, because they had no concept of what it was from the past to teach them right from wrong? Even with your quoting W Goldberg, Ralph, I don't agree. These shows should not be dredged up. It is better to focus on where we are now rather than point back to past mistakes and let others unaware of these horror shows needlessly know of them.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 9, 2023 7:03:09 GMT
Sadly, there seems an increased tendency these days to divide the world into the Elect and the Unelect. Anyone who puts a foot out of place is a very Devil. I have to admit that I love it when eco-activists are revealed to be keen on gas-guzzling trips to the four corners of the world. Most people are complicated. George Formby went Blackface in No Limit when he was disguising himself as a seaside minstrel (rather than a Black man). But..." When George Formby went to Apartheid era South Africa in 1946, he could not understand why he was playing only to white audiences, he decided to refuse to play to racially segregated audiences, and went to the townships to play to the black populations in their own villages. They loved him for this, cheering him on. The National party leader at the time Daniel Malan berated him, eventually expelling Formby from the country. Beryl Formby told Malan "Why don't you .... off, you horrible little man". www.facebook.com/RebelCityNewspaper/photos/a.1657890734246316/1824074760961245/?type=3&paipv=0&eav=AfZfpOYuVuTg7-krzaYWq1o6LYuOM1i6v_NY9w18W4z6Q2gMxl8oPhK4jrGcIp1auIc&_rdrIn his last film, 'George in Civvy Street', also in 1946, he performs with a band which includes a Black drummer. Is he still a knuckle-dragging fascist/Nazi? I don't think so. You're missing my point, John. My complaint is with a show that promotes the practice of putting black-face on white actors, which induces the audience to laugh at this like they are laughing at clowns. The inference is mockery and it is degrading to others. Nothing to do with Mr Formby's endeavours and the fact he used genuine black people in his film in a way that was not condescending, and also supported the black community. This is a positive thing which I support and something I prefer to see and to read of (as in the case of your post). Excellent post, but not relevant to my complaint.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 9, 2023 7:06:30 GMT
This is not someone else's house, this is a forum. It's an absolutely pointless thread, this one. It's been established that the musical Daleks clip is missing, no-one has any photo record of it. No-one can add anything to the original query. Job done. Now can we please lock this thread so that the TB&WMS subject can be re-buried. Lock the thread and leave it, just like the show has thankfully been. Thanks for your input, Andy, but this thread will remain unlocked unless the admin team decide otherwise. In the meantime, you can stop demanding that any programme, offensive or otherwise, be wiped. In case you hadn’t noticed, this forum is all about recovering missing material, not adding to it. Sorry, Rob, and with all due respect I cannot condone the hunt for material which is degrading to the black community in a way that the TB&WMS was. I do genuinely believe the show should be buried and forgotten. The inference of the performances was mockery at others expense.
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Post by garygraham on Jul 9, 2023 7:40:35 GMT
I'd be interested to know what age you are and whether you were around when the BWMS was on TV? I would say 99%+ of viewers of all races had no idea about what historical back story it had in the USA and were not offended. It was just the way things were. We were much less worldly in those days. America was a distant place and often presented as extreme and wacky. British culture has always been about laughing at ourselves and our particular characteristics in many different ways. People I have met from former empire countries seem to share the British sense of humour. One of my dearest friends is a Nigerian. We learn by getting to see things. The situation we have now is quite dishonest. With bits being snipped out of old shows without telling the audience. It was incredibly common for white actors or comedians to wear brown make-up. Pamela Stephenson appeared on Not the Nine o'clock News as Moria Stewart, Tracey Ulman appeared as Lydia from Fame in A Kick Up the Eighties with Lenny Henry as Leroy, the Two Ronnies did the minstrels and then black characters until the end in the early 80s. View AttachmentView AttachmentWhat do you think of drag? I would love to hear. Surely very offensive to women? Why is it still on the BBC? Preachers are bringing forward the demise of broadcast TV. Eastenders now down to 1m viewers on some episodes according to the press. What will happen to the archives if BBCtv or ITV cease to exist or no longer have the funds to maintain them? However I do think there's a "burn the house down if I don't get my way" mentality to all of this. Again, you're talking about your pov. I'm talking about how people would find this offensive now as they did back then. The implication was mockery - have a laugh at the expense of another race. Posters on here cannot or will not see this outside of their pov, to the pov of others. This show should be erased, wiped without trace for the harm it did and can still do. Again, this thread serves no purpose other than politcal discussion, it won't find your missing clip - not that it needs finding, givig the offensive content of the dance itself. I love to hear anybody who thinks this should be preserved stand up before a 2023 TV audience and say this and show clips from it to them. See the reaction. I would agree that in the USA the form had its roots in mockery of black people but I truly don't think that was the intention of most if not all of those involved in the UK. It was just a sort of theatrical art form. One could say the same about drag. Some of which is quite foul mockery of women. On the other hand there are/were female impersonators such as Hinge and Brackett which one could say had considerable artistic merit and males playing female roles in the theatre goes way back centuries. Perhaps I'm a hypocrite because I wouldn't like to see any new black-face on TV however I wouldn't like to see drag banned. Although I think a lot of modern drag is without merit. But if BBC 4 wanted to screen an episode of Love Thy Neighbour or the BWMS and maybe precede it with a documentary putting it in context then I see no reason why not and then we can all discuss it. Not everyone has the money to buy discs or streams. As someone has pointed out, that people now go to YouTube to see these things instead of the BBC and that is becoming a problem for them. There is a young black American man called Jay Peezy who does reaction videos on YouTube and that is how I have rewatched Love Thy Neighbour 50 years after first seeing it. It's a sort of "gross out" humour now. So ridiculous and dated. But the controlling broadcasters who know what is good for us can't trust us to watch it in the way Jay does, to his credit.
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Post by John Wall on Jul 9, 2023 8:32:00 GMT
I’m not sure we’re getting anywhere, going round and round in circles.
What do we do with Alf Garnett? He was created to shine a light on bigotry but many bigots liked him.
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Post by garygraham on Jul 9, 2023 9:24:29 GMT
I’m not sure we’re getting anywhere, going round and round in circles. What do we do with Alf Garnett? He was created to shine a light on bigotry but many bigots liked him. True but we still made great progress. Isn't the issue that the broadcasters no longer trust the public and assume they're all thickos?
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Post by John Wall on Jul 9, 2023 10:02:50 GMT
I’m not sure we’re getting anywhere, going round and round in circles. What do we do with Alf Garnett? He was created to shine a light on bigotry but many bigots liked him. True but we still made great progress. Isn't the issue that the broadcasters no longer trust the public and assume they're all thickos? One of the biggest problems is the over sensitivity to complaints. Things can happen, be cancelled, etc because of one or two complaints.
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