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Post by George D on Mar 14, 2014 19:23:52 GMT
VERY GOOD NEWS!!!
I made my phone calls.
First, I called a film preservation company in the usa. While they work mainly with goverment grants, they gave me the names of 3 private companies.
On one I reached, I showed the gentleman the pictures and he said it was too far gone for him. However, he knew someone who has worked miracles with film of simliar situations.
I called him, and emailed him Paul's pictures (as a link of course)
He said he has seen worse and he believes there is hope. He is willing to look at it for no charge and has some very delicate equipment that could do it as as low a speed of one frame a second. He said it was a positive that the core was missing because that also gives the opportunity of being unwound from the inside.
I will PM paul the information on the company and allow him to follow up with him.
Hopefully this can be recovered, and if it works, then as more unrecoverable films are found we have another option.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Mar 14, 2014 20:04:49 GMT
Nice! And like I said, there is a good off-air source for its audio, so that takes a little bit of the pressure off.
Of course we must not fool ourselves into unreasonable hope. But expanding on my previous post, normally only methods would be considered that don't affect the film. However, in this case, we can take the risk of unusually aggressive methods. If the film is destroyed in the process, then so be it.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Mar 14, 2014 23:17:08 GMT
OK.
Imagine you had a sheet of clear plastic and you created a perfect piece of artwork on it. In Marmite. Then to preserve it you placed another sheet of clear plastic on top. Then, you tried to remove that top sheet. What do you think would happen? You've guessed it, the image would end up on two sheets of plastic sheet, except it will be smeared across both sheets. That is what has happened to this film, except it has happened on each frame for the full 30 minute film.
The simple act of unwinding it causes the emulsion to be pulled off so it ends up on both sides of the film but smeared. It can't be scanned, it can't be put on a telecine, it can't be cleaned or soaked in any liquid.
Some of the best film restorers in this country, experts at the BBC and the BFI have spent a great deal of time with this film and concluded that nothing can be done with it. It's a shame, but there you go.
Regards,
Paul
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Mar 14, 2014 23:53:07 GMT
It almost sounds like a Schrödinger's telerecording. Unwind it, and it's gone. Some of the best film restorers in this country But can it hurt to listen to suggestions from the USA, what George mentioned above? Once in a while people find weird, "left field" solutions by thinking out of the box. Or perhaps out of the UK. Mind you, I'm not contradicting you about the state of this stuff. It's very very very likely that you are right in your final sentence. Perhaps the experts have already thought of every known / radical / obscure / odd idea, but none would have worked. But still, if someone in the US comes up with a plan - provided it's from a reputable source - who knows? (After a century of dominating the motion picture market the USA must have quite some technical knowledge about film...)
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Post by Alex Dering on Mar 15, 2014 1:27:43 GMT
Where's that Dunkirk spirit? Never say die.
1. Is there any way to completely arrest the decay? For instance, can the film be cooled to hypercold temperatures without destroying it? If so, then do it and wait for techniques to be developed that will allow it to be salvaged. In 30 years, there may not be anyone left who wants to watch it, but in 30 years microscopic robots could physically map the entire film, report the data, and that could be processed by a computer into a salvaged episode.
2. Can it be CT'ed or scanned in some similar fashion? Is there any way to scan the film OTHER than by physically running the film through a projector? Something similar to how the Dead Sea Scrolls were examined recently?
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Post by George D on Mar 15, 2014 3:22:33 GMT
Here are my thoughts.
Around 2005 a gentleman came on the forum and said that he was going to search in africa for missing dr who episodes. Some had said the experts have checked. it will do no good. However he went and looked anyway and now we have 9 more missing episodes.
I dont know what can or cant be recovered..I dont know if this person can help. I dont know if another person can help.. I dont know if anyone can help.. But the thought that i have is "dont give up" Because if we gave up 30 years ago we would probably have a lot less episodes than we have today.
And even if nothing is found to save the episode, by thinking outside the box and looking at other options, perhaps more information can be learned which could help when we might need some additional techniques.
If you want me to share what you shared with him, ill be glad to and see how he feels. If you perhaps think it might be more beneficial for you to talk and brainstorm with the gentleman, its fine also.
HOwever the one thought I have is to make sure the film is stored in the best archival conditions possible, because if its in a garge where the summer heat will be there then perhaps there may not be a print to worry about restoring in the future.
Regardless of what the outcome is, I appreciate all the effort you made to help the film become restored and I hope you take my efforts in a spirit of attempting to help (even if it's not possible)
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Mar 15, 2014 8:44:06 GMT
If you want me to share what you shared with him, ill be glad to and see how he feels. If you perhaps think it might be more beneficial for you to talk and brainstorm with the gentleman, its fine also. HOwever the one thought I have is to make sure the film is stored in the best archival conditions possible, because if its in a garge where the summer heat will be there then perhaps there may not be a print to worry about restoring in the future. Regardless of what the outcome is, I appreciate all the effort you made to help the film become restored and I hope you take my efforts in a spirit of attempting to help (even if it's not possible) Hi George, Well, firstly the film is being correctly stored and it isn't going to 'bake'. Freezing the film will damage it and although airing the film would slow down the vinegar process it would also allow the film to dry and shrink and then it is most certainly gone. This is basic chemistry and nothing can be done to stop the decay. That said, I am happy to entertain any ideas that may help recover anything from the film, but it can't be unwound. I have one last drastic action to try, but in the meantime, please do pass on the information to your contact. Regards, Paul
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Post by richardfitzgerald on Mar 15, 2014 12:37:52 GMT
If you want me to share what you shared with him, ill be glad to and see how he feels. If you perhaps think it might be more beneficial for you to talk and brainstorm with the gentleman, its fine also. HOwever the one thought I have is to make sure the film is stored in the best archival conditions possible, because if its in a garge where the summer heat will be there then perhaps there may not be a print to worry about restoring in the future. Regardless of what the outcome is, I appreciate all the effort you made to help the film become restored and I hope you take my efforts in a spirit of attempting to help (even if it's not possible) Hi George, Well, firstly the film is being correctly stored and it isn't going to 'bake'. Freezing the film will damage it and although airing the film would slow down the vinegar process it would also allow the film to dry and shrink and then it is most certainly gone. This is basic chemistry and nothing can be done to stop the decay. That said, I am happy to entertain any ideas that may help recover anything from the film, but it can't be unwound. I have one last drastic action to try, but in the meantime, please do pass on the information to your contact. Regards, Paul Paul, the only other thought that occurs to me is - if all known methods are unworkable - offer it as a research project to one of our universities like Imperial College or similar to experiment on?
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Post by Peter Stirling on Mar 15, 2014 14:16:51 GMT
OK. Imagine you had a sheet of clear plastic and you created a perfect piece of artwork on it. In Marmite. Then to preserve it you placed another sheet of clear plastic on top. Then, you tried to remove that top sheet. What do you think would happen? You've guessed it, the image would end up on two sheets of plastic sheet, except it will be smeared across both sheets. That is what has happened to this film, except it has happened on each frame for the full 30 minute film. The simple act of unwinding it causes the emulsion to be pulled off so it ends up on both sides of the film but smeared. It can't be scanned, it can't be put on a telecine, it can't be cleaned or soaked in any liquid. Some of the best film restorers in this country, experts at the BBC and the BFI have spent a great deal of time with this film and concluded that nothing can be done with it. It's a shame, but there you go. Regards, Paul Thought you might be open to suggestions considering you started a thread on its plight,the print is at the point of no return and everything else has been tried.? It seems your not and my suggestion didn't even get a response,
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Post by George D on Mar 15, 2014 16:29:27 GMT
Thank you for your response. While its the weekend now, Ill reach out to them early next week. Ill also attempt more research by contining to contact Professional restoration companines here in the states.
Wheather it will do any good, I cant say, but at least we can feel at peace we've tried all safe methods before considering more risky methods.
This situation reminds me of something that happened to me a few years back. I had a pile of autographed 8x10s of some celebrities and unfortunately got some moisture into them. I tried to separate and it appeared it did damage to the original. Then I read a techique online that involved getting a piece of dental floss and slowly working it between the two to separate it. Im not saying the coating was perfect when the light shown on it, however it was the best I knew how to do during that situation. I dont know if it will work with the film either, but if all professional methods fail, then that perhaps is another idea to try on a test piece.
To answer Peter, all ideas are accepted but perhaps not responded to immediately. I don't know that much about film chemicals but I respect what you say. Some have said that water on film causes the picture to come off. If you want to get an old film print around the house.. expose it to water and see what happens to it. Maybe there are other chemicals such as those used in film development that might work better, but I think someone once had a clip of a film print exposed to water and it wasnt a happy site.
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Mar 15, 2014 22:46:34 GMT
Thought you might be open to suggestions considering you started a thread on its plight,the print is at the point of no return and everything else has been tried.? It seems your not and my suggestion didn't even get a response, Hi Peter, Apologies but I am extremely busy at the moment. I have had very little time in the past few weeks in the UK and I am busy on another project. Frankly, your suggestion of soaking the film in water is a very bad one. It can only do harm and would cause the reaction which is already taking place in the film to accelerate. Additionally, the water will get into the already massively weakened emulsion and it will separate from the backing more quickly, or even worse, it will just wash off. I do have one last ditch attempt to make with the film, after which I'm happy to hand the remains over to anyone who believes they stand a reasonable chance to recover something from it. Regards, Paul
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Post by Marty Schultz on Mar 15, 2014 23:43:19 GMT
I remember reading some ( from the US) research papers via the net regarding a plastic based agent that had been developed to stabilise similar archival film problems. This was several years ago. Unfortunately I can't seem to find the article online. No doubt the BFI etc would be aware of said product. Does anyone know the name of what I'm talking about?
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Post by Pete Morris on Mar 16, 2014 15:54:54 GMT
<abbr>Okay, I've seen the photos, but I don't know what they mean. Can someone describe the actual condition of the film?
Why can't it be unwound? has it gone brittle? Or is each turn sticking to the one above and below it?
Is the emulsion still on the film, or has it come off?
Is every single frame affected? Could you, for example, recover one frame every few seconds, and at least make a decent recon? </abbr>
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2014 17:07:06 GMT
I think Paul has explained the condition of the film in detail already!
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Post by Dan S on Mar 16, 2014 17:24:03 GMT
Or is each turn sticking to the one above and below it? That's what the pics look like to me. Like the whole thing is all stuck together in a big block of gunk. Maybe there's some chemical that'll allow the film to be unspooled. At best, what's left of the frame(if anything) would be smudged onto the back of the next layer if film. I think it's worth a try however slim the chances. You might end up with some sort of smeared ghost image but you won't know until you try. Even a few good frames recovered would be better than what we have at the moment.
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