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Post by Paul Watkins on Jul 21, 2013 22:37:51 GMT
I'm posting this in the general thread because it's a technical question rather than a find.
With regards to the 16mm reels that were recovered a few years ago featuring Pink Floyd, Alan Price, The Turtles etc....
Is there any attempt being made or has been made to obtain a better transfer from the surviving reels?
I understand that the reels are in a very poor condition, transparent at some points, but the one transfer that was shown at KAL had the tape stopping and starting through it making the clip of Tom Jones in particular unwatchable.
I really have no idea about restoring 16mm film but is it possible to protect the original in some way to run it through the player so as it doesn't constantly stop/start, which would make some of the clips more watchable?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 22:45:12 GMT
They weren't 16mm film but reels of 1" videotape, optically recorded. They were pretty lousy condition with severe deterioration (tape coating had disappeared in places and daylight showing through, so no signal to recover!). I doubt that too much can be done to improve quality as there was just no image in certain places (the stop / starts were on the original reels that way). Possibly the sound could be improved slightly where it stops / starts and slurs badly (presumably tape stretching), although it couldn't just be re-dubbed from the records in some cases as there was a unique live element to some of the tracks. You'll find a thread covering the details fully from the time the tapes were recovered.
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Post by Peter Stirling on Jul 21, 2013 22:53:55 GMT
I think the answer maybe that it was not 16mm film but videotape in those finds. 16mm film will play however damaged it is or at least can be made to do so, however videotape is a different kettle of fish and those stops you see are maybe where the sync pulses (electronic sprockets) have got decayed from that section of tape ? or the tape itself has got very sticky as the binding glue has started to fail? Sometimes baking the tape in an oven (obviously under very controlled temprertures) can dry out out the stickyness and bind the oxide coating, but the tape has to be transfered immediately after because the tape will quickly start absorbing moisture after its session in the oven.
So what you saw is maybe the best at what they could do with it?
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Post by Paul Watkins on Jul 21, 2013 22:53:58 GMT
They weren't 16mm film but reels of 1" videotape, optically recorded. They were pretty lousy condition with severe deterioration (tape coating had disappeared in places and daylight showing through, so no signal to recover!). I doubt that too much can be done to improve quality as there was just no image in certain places. Possibly the sound could be improved slightly where it slurs badly, although it couldn't just be re-dubbed from the records in some cases as there was a unique live element to some of the tracks. You'll find a thread covering the details fully from the time the tapes were recovered. My mistake yes 1" reels. My point here is that the 'slurring' that occurs on many of the tracks where the picture is present surely must be able to be improved on by finding a way of playing the reels without the tape 'snagging' and causing the slurring? Or is it a case of the reels have been filed away without ever attempting to improve the transfer? Alan Price, Dave Davies, The Turtles & Tom Jones all have the picture mainly intact.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 22:58:29 GMT
It's purely the luck of the draw as to which acts were on which bits of tape (some of which was in worse condition than other bits). The slurring looked to me like severe tape stretch though, which was on the original reels in the way it looks on the transfer (the sound and vision wouldn't necessarily break up in the same way at the same moment though).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 23:35:17 GMT
From what I recall and understand, the tapes were shedding oxide badly during the digital transfers hence they only had the one chance to salvage what they could. The tapes had to be baked a couple of times to make some kind of playback possible and even then, the tapes were in such bad condition it was a miracle they managed to get what they did. Not sure what's happened to the tapes, but I sincerely doubt very much they can ever be played again and even then, there would be less information that could be recovered from them. The biggest tragedy was the tapes not surfacing a few years earlier, but had they not been found and transferred when they were and surfaced say, today, there would likely be no chance of recovering any kind of signal from them. I did see a photo of one of the tapes - it looked a real mess with way too much oxide lost.
So, I think it's fair to say what was recovered is the best that was possible. Some of the damage I'm sure can be fixed up via digital techniques, both audio and visual but it would necessitate many long painful hours and even then, there are whole sections completely missing that can never be repaired.
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Post by Gary Critcher on Jul 22, 2013 4:33:35 GMT
are you sure they were 1" tapes? They only came in in the early 80's. Are you sure they weren't either 2" (used all through the 60's and 70's) or were they maybe some sort of home format? I really can't see 1" tape being that badly damaged in only 20 years??
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Post by Gary Critcher on Jul 22, 2013 4:34:57 GMT
............I'd rather like to see the photo of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 9:50:41 GMT
are you sure they were 1" tapes? They only came in in the early 80's. Are you sure they weren't either 2" (used all through the 60's and 70's) or were they maybe some sort of home format? I really can't see 1" tape being that badly damaged in only 20 years?? No, that's right. They weren't on normal 1" format (as introduced in the '80s) originally, as I recall. The article on the recovery at the time said it was an old format that the recordings were on (not full broadcast standard either, from what I understood) and also the tapes were kept in storage (badly) over the years. The existing copies are optical transfers too, although I'm not sure if this was the modern method of recovery or that the originals were the same. A proper in-depth article on these valuable recordings would be welcome!
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jul 22, 2013 9:56:42 GMT
Well... 1967 tapes, optical tansfer, shedding oxide, baking tapes... it sounds very much like one of those early domestic formats.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 10:02:14 GMT
Yes, it does. Here's the blurb from the relevant forum thread at the time it was recovered:
"tx: 06.07.67 & 27.7.67. About 20 mins of each show exists. Both are hosted by Alan Freeman. Both feature constant rolling as the original tape was very badly damaged. Perhaps at any given time you only get about a minute of unsullied footage but it is very valuable as a record of what the Pink Floyd looked like when they played See Emily Play (06.07.67) and to see the wild antics of the Turtles (27.7.67). Includes rare items e.g. Floyd, Procol Harum, Turtles, Dave Davies. The tape came from Bill Harrison who stores, catalogues and repairs (mostly) audio material for various clients in the music industry. Ex_1” videotape".
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2013 10:11:47 GMT
............I'd rather like to see the photo of them. It was published in Mojo magazine I recall shortly after the find was announced so probably one of the first issues of 2010.
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Post by Greg H on Jul 22, 2013 10:17:08 GMT
My mistake yes 1" reels. My point here is that the 'slurring' that occurs on many of the tracks where the picture is present surely must be able to be improved on by finding a way of playing the reels without the tape 'snagging' and causing the slurring? Or is it a case of the reels have been filed away without ever attempting to improve the transfer? Alan Price, Dave Davies, The Turtles & Tom Jones all have the picture mainly intact. I recall that someone posted a link to a demo of software that stabilises rolling pitch on an audio recording, so I think it fairly likely that some of the audio segments that are there could be stabilised to some extent.
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Post by markjhaley on Jul 22, 2013 10:32:53 GMT
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Post by Paul Watkins on Jul 22, 2013 10:52:12 GMT
That's an expensive bit of software! $4400 Anyway it shows that something could be done to restore this important historic footage. Also agree Laurence that an in-depth article/discussion is long overdue on these reels. This is partly why i raised this topic again. Can Dick Fiddy shed any more light on the process used to recover what's already been seen and what the issues are in perhaps trying again?
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