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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Aug 6, 2008 17:22:27 GMT
Some believe that if current methods are not producing anything, then why not think outside the box and see if that possibly brings anything to light? When people suggest alternate methods, they end up being put down for their suggestions. There's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, so long as people don't become upset or offended if their ideas are criticised. I've been on this board for over two years and can think of only a few instances when suggestions were taken apart in less than diplomatic fashion. Many ideas have been proposed before, many are wildly impractical in terms of cost, resources or manpower, some are downright impossible. The Zambia episode seemed to create some unrealistic expectations. The BBC was never going to conduct a reel-by-reel search of all accessible African archives. Inquiries were made and answers received in the negative. This wasn't a satisfying outcome but it was always the most likely one. There seems to be a belief - a minority one, perhaps - that the success of the new 'Doctor Who' has created enormous public interest in the original series and, therefore, the missing episodes situation. According to this school of thought, any costs the BBC incurred in recovering lost episodes would be more than recouped by DVD sales. I don't think this is the case. I would guess that the majority of new 'Who' fans have little interest in the old show and neither know nor care about lost episodes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'd be interested to know if DVD sales of classic 'Who' have increased significantly since the series returned in 2005.
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Post by Rich Cornock on Aug 6, 2008 18:46:42 GMT
very well put, i couldn't have done better myself. exactly what i was getting at. its easy to criticize the BBC but the reality of getting into African archives is that its almost impossible. imagine if someone knocked on your door and said "i sold you something 40 years ago, is it OK if i now take a look round your place to see if you still have it" how many people would say "come on in"
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Post by John Andersen on Aug 7, 2008 5:34:49 GMT
[quote author=dobrien board=who thread=3627[/quote] There's nothing wrong with thinking outside the box, so long as people don't become upset or offended if their ideas are criticised. Many ideas have been proposed before, many are wildly impractical in terms of cost, resources or manpower, some are downright impossible.[/quote] This reminds me of a politician that criticizes his rivals in government and says that the plans they are proposing will not work. But when asked how he would come up with something constructive and better, the man being critical has no plan and would rather do nothing. As for the BBC searching for lost episodes, they seemed to be much more proactive in the hunt to locate and destroy the Hartnell and Troughton prints in foreign television stations than searching for lost prints now.
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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Aug 7, 2008 8:31:49 GMT
This reminds me of a politician that criticizes his rivals in government and says that the plans they are proposing will not work. But when asked how he would come up with something constructive and better, the man being critical has no plan and would rather do nothing. As for the BBC searching for lost episodes, they seemed to be much more proactive in the hunt to locate and destroy the Hartnell and Troughton prints in foreign television stations than searching for lost prints now. Not sure this analogy holds up. You seem to be implying that any new suggestion is better than nothing and should not be criticised whatever its flaws. The BBC never operated a seek-locate-destroy policy for old material sold abroad. The contracts with overseas buyers specified how the material should be disposed of once their rights expired: pass it on to the next buyer, return it to the BBC or junk it on the spot. We're extremely lucky that this didn't always happen. It's easy to forget that a show such as 'Tomb of the Cybermen' was never meant to survive long-term. The master tapes were wiped, the 16mm film recording negatives were junked along with all known 16mm prints. That a complete set of prints survived in Hong Kong - a territory not known for preserving its popular cultural heritage - is little short of a TV miracle.
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Post by John Andersen on Aug 8, 2008 20:43:25 GMT
Not sure this analogy holds up. You seem to be implying that any new suggestion is better than nothing and should not be criticised whatever its flaws. The BBC never operated a seek-locate-destroy policy for old material sold abroad. The contracts with overseas buyers specified how the material should be disposed of once their rights expired: pass it on to the next buyer, return it to the BBC or junk it on the spot.[/quote] Whatever methods that the BBC are currently using to recover lost episodes are apparently not working very well. Whatever methods that the BBC are currently using to get the message out have not been working very well as is the case with the film collectors that had The Lion and Day or Armageddon. That is why I encourage fans to try whatever methods they possibly can and hopefully something will turn up. Sitting on our asses and doing nothing is probably not going to result in a recovery. My friends and I have placed advertisements in magazines, the Internet, and other film papers regularly in an attempt to find some lost Doctor Who episodes. Since there are only so many of us, we can only do so much with our small resources as magazine advertisements and film papers can become expensive for the average guy.. As for the BBC, they telexed those countries with orders to destroy BBC material. That is a huge reason why so little Hartnell and Troughton episodes have been recovered from overseas television vaults. They were attempting to clean out overseas vaults that had BBC material, and unfortunately they were very successful. You may not call it a "seek-locate-destroy" policy, but that is what it looks like to me.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 8, 2008 22:24:42 GMT
As for the BBC, they telexed those countries with orders to destroy BBC material. You really take every internet whim as being actual fact you know! ;D Richard
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Post by Greg H on Aug 8, 2008 22:55:58 GMT
Im not being funny, as I wasnt actually there myself, but is that a comment on what Ian Levine states as fact from when he was there at the time?
Can anyone prove or disprove this often said thing one way or the other definitively? I am genuinely interested. Or have I misinterpreted what you are saying?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 8, 2008 23:11:17 GMT
How can Ian state it as a fact Greg when he wasn't there? The episodes had already been destroyed by the time he got to Villiers House - in most cases *years* before!
Richard
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Post by Greg H on Aug 9, 2008 6:39:37 GMT
Hmm. I wasnt there either, and I truly dont know what went on other than what various researchers tell me. So, out of interest, are you saying that it wasnt as Levine states, that a lot of foreign sales episodes were destroyed specificaly at the order of Pamela Nash working to the dictate of BBC policy? And very late in the day, so to speak. I am interested to get to the bottom of this. A few people seem to disagree about the actual events.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 9, 2008 10:40:36 GMT
BBC Enterprises would have certainly instructed each purchaser of the episodes what they should do with them after they had completed their allocated transmission, but the notion that the BBC would have spent its time firing telexes around the world demanding the destruction of material as suggested is somewhat unlikely, having spoken to people who worked there.
Richard
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Post by Greg H on Aug 9, 2008 11:03:51 GMT
Interesting indeed. I knew that the overseas buyers were instructed to return or destroy material after their purchased number of screenings at the outset of a deal, but Levine has always stated (AFAIK) that Pamela Nash and co actively chased them up, quite late in the day to ensure total destruction. If this is not the case, it is tempting to speculate if some foreign buyers may possibly have been lax for one reason or another, such as the African archives. I wonder if theres anything lurking out there still....? Nice if there were a couple of Troughtons out there, but of course theres nothing to solidly indicate that Off topic, but what would you like to see returned the most then, in a perfect world of course
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Post by John Andersen on Aug 9, 2008 16:34:57 GMT
As for the BBC, they telexed those countries with orders to destroy BBC material. You really take every internet whim as being actual fact you know! ;D Richard I got that from your own reply to another post at another forum on January 7, 2008 at 21:26:29. You were not contradicting the person you were replying to. The person was complaining about the BBC employee telexing other television stations with orders to destroy prints. Your reply on that date states that this happened back then and it still happens today. Posted - 07 Jan 2008 : 21:36:29 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by ianj It was taken above and beyond the call of duty. Even telexing every other tv station to ENSURE that they had destroyed the prints -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why do you persist in going on about this, Ian? It wasn't above and beyond anything. That was part of her everyday job and as I've already said, those self same procedures happen at BBC Worldwide today. Richard
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Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 9, 2008 17:42:09 GMT
Pamela Nash's job as Programme Supply Organiser would have meant that she would have been responsible for tracking the progress of the telerecordings that Enterprises sent out and making sure that they had followed the contracted instructions as to what they needed to do with those prints following transmission. And indeed, BBC Worldwide still need to ensure that the contracts that broadcasting organisations around the world have with them in regard to transmitting their material are followed.
That's rather different to the manic and obsessive behaviour that people try to paint her as following, which is the point I was making.
Richard
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Post by Greg H on Aug 9, 2008 18:22:03 GMT
Anyway, what would you most like to see return??
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Post by Richard Bignell on Aug 9, 2008 18:28:02 GMT
Anyway, what would you most like to see return?? Personally, I'd love to see something from The Smugglers, The Web of Fear or Fury from the Deep! ;D Richard
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