The Tenth Planet

[LanceM]

Possibly in the case of Tenth Planet ep 4 and Masterplan ep 4 the episodes could have possibly been nicked from Blue Peter, or whever the episodes were stored when on thier extended loan. I wonder if any of the employees who worked with the film, at any stage were contacted to see if by chance they remembered what happened to the episodes? Just a stray thought, Blue Peter probably does not posess personell records from all those decades ago. Just a way ward thought, if anyone else has any thoughts or info please feel free to drop a reply.

Thanks,Lance.

[Sam]

I think its quite possible they exist. If someone on the blue peter team was a fan, it would be a unique oppertunity to make off with an episode for themselves. If the BBC were willing to chuck them then surely noone would really care if they took one of the reels home. Sure enough nobody at the BBC did until now. They're probably floating around in someones loft.

[Laurence Piper]

...is that via telekinesis or just battery power?

[Ben]

I actually think, sadly, The Traitors and The Tenth Planet: Episode Four are amongst the top episodes LEAST LIKELY to exist. From what we know:

The Traitors:
- Videotape wiped.
- 16mm telerecording most likely junked though RUMOURED stolen or lost (and lost = probably destroyed).
- Only sold to Australia, but never broadcast. Unknown what happened to the print, but probably destroyed then or since.

The Tenth Planet: Episode 4:
- Videotape wiped.
- 16mm telerecording probably junked accidentally or lost (again, which means it's probably destroyed). May have been stolen, but not likely.
- Only sold to three countries. No idea myself what happened to the prints, but they were probably junked or return and junked.

Most other missing episodes had healthier sales than that!

[Ben]

Mind you, following on from my theory, I've just proved that no missing episodes survive anywhere and that Day of Armageddon will never be found...

Something to think about?

[andrew martin]

Some of these threads are lurching into the realms of philosophy... Unless anyone actually testifies that they know what happend to the two prints, ie that they were junked, we may never know what happened to them...

[Ben]

I think what I was trying to say was just that - we won't ever known unless the episodes turn up (as with the completely unexpected Day of Armageddon, which was believed junked), but the impossible has happened (Day of Armaggeon, Girl on a Trapezze (The Avengers - was thought not to have been recorded), Counter Plot, Escape Switch etc.)

Though I sadly am beginning to doubt we'll ever see any more Doctor Who episodes turn up. I remember pondering back in 2000, when I was a lot more optimistic, what the next missing episode would be to turn up and when. I never imagined it would be Day of Armageddon. I'm going to try to be optimistic again and speculate that the next episode to be recovered will be an episode of Marco Polo within the next three years. Unlikely, but optimistic.

[Lance M]

Hey Ben,

I hope that there will be more recoveries. As Neil Lambess said on the Missing Years Documentary "They exist out there, somewhere". And we as fans should be looking into internet auction houses, jumble sales, film fairs in europe, where vintage film might be found. Or to look into the rarely talked about countries where missing episodes were sent, such as the Carribean. Has anyone looded into the idea that the there could be missing who in the Carribean? Do the Carribean television stations that were sent missing who have film archives? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,Lance.

[Ben]

Guest-Lance said:

Hey Ben,

I hope that there will be more recoveries. As Neil Lambess said on the Missing Years Documentary "They exist out there, somewhere". And we as fans should be looking into internet auction houses, jumble sales, film fairs in europe, where vintage film might be found. Or to look into the rarely talked about countries where missing episodes were sent, such as the Carribean. Has anyone looded into the idea that the there could be missing who in the Carribean? Do the Carribean television stations that were sent missing who have film archives? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,Lance.

My theory (as expressed earlier in the general forum) on missing episodes in television/University/whatever archives is this: There probably is some undiscovered material (not neessarily Doctor Who) in archives. I think that, as time goes by and as archives catalogue their stock, we can either expect:

1. The archives to return the material as they discover it. (See The Tomb of the Cybermen, which was returned from Hong Kong who earlier went on record stating that they had no more Doctor Who episodes.)

2. They will destroy the material (realising it should have been done decades ago, it's not "their" stock or whatever).

3. List it online in their collection database, which may be found by a fan.

Really, either way, we're still in the same boat as my theory says that the episodes will either turn up or won't turn up with more emphasis on them not turning up. However, we can hope that as time goes by any hypothetical missing material existing in archives will:

- Be listed online;
- Returned; or, failing those:
- Cared for (archives will hopefully look after anything they unknowingly have or even transfer it to a digital medium securing its future).

My optimism lies in those three factors, those and collectors unknowingly having material. There's too much negative to even begin listing...

[Matthew North]

Can I just Clear up one myth, 'J. Smith' a very well respected film maker and a personel friend, and one of the most thorough effiecent people that you are ever likely to meet.

I asked him about this a few years ago and he told me that whenver a film was Late, stroppy mems went to the prod office until the film was returned and ALL films were returned usually immideatly after use.

Best

Matt

[Nigel Bland]

matthewnorth said:

Can I just Clear up one myth, 'J. Smith' a very well respected film maker and a personel friend, and one of the most thorough effiecent people that you are ever likely to meet.

I asked him about this a few years ago and he told me that whenver a film was Late, stroppy mems went to the prod office until the film was returned and ALL films were returned usually immideatly after use.

Best

Matt

Unfortunately, there'd be a better chance of these episodes turning up if he'd nicked 'em!
Isn't honesty supposed to be the best policy?

[dralpha]

William said:

sounds like the bbc didn't have any coherent policy in those days and just muddled along. sounds about right.

Yeah, they were complete nutcases! I am surprised that no one was killed in OH&S or the building hasn't fallen apart! There were completely un-organized!

[Sam]

I find it a lot more fun to be optomistic.
I think these, and other reels, will have wriggled their way out of the clutches of BBC enterprises destructive grip. If i worked at the BBC and I saw cans of DW bieng chucked, I would swipe them. I'm sure at the time the reels were chucked, nearly everybody there would be in to DW. In the days before the miricle of VHS I'm sure anyone would jump at the oppertunity to view thier own personal reruns of DW. Isn't it strange that so many archives all over the world only kept some of their DW and the rest 'disappeared'. If I had a rare episode, I cant deny after reading what happened to them orginaly, I would be rather nervous returning my precious reel to the people who so nearly destroyed it forever (however I couldn't possibley hoard it). If for some strange reason the person who has got these reels doesn't want to return them, at least in britain it would be hard to have copies made because those who transfer the film on to other media would send a copy to the BBC. I don't know to much about film as a format or who would have them, but the possibilities are endless, But I am sure there are more to be discovered. We live in hope!

[Ben]

I found it strange that the Day of Armageddon man didn't return it during the BBC's Treasure Hunt. Perhaps he lived under a rock?

[Richard Bignell]

Guest-Sam said:

If i worked at the BBC and I saw cans of DW bieng chucked, I would swipe them. I'm sure at the time the reels were chucked, nearly everybody there would be in to DW.

Well yes, *you* would because you're a fan of the programme, but that doesn't mean, as you seem to imply, that everyone working at BBC Enterprises was! Imagine, for example, that what you saw being disposed of was not a Doctor Who episode, but an episode of Little Women or Heidi or any other programme that you had no interest in at all - would you bother saving and storing them? I certainly wouldn't have! Of course there's also the fact that very few people have 16mm projectors in their homes, so taking any such prints would have been a pointless exercise as they wouldn't have been able to watch them anyway!

Isn't it strange that so many archives all over the world only kept some of their DW and the rest 'disappeared'.

Not really. The just did what they instructed to do under the terms of their BBC contracts. Odd episodes, for one reason or another, slipped through the net.

If for some strange reason the person who has got these reels doesn't want to return them, at least in britain it would be hard to have copies made because those who transfer the film on to other media would send a copy to the BBC.

No they wouldn't! Look in any Yellow Pages any you'll find lots of companies that are willing to copy film to video, so they're not hard to find. They wouldn't contact the BBC if you took an episode to be transferred. The work they do is between them and their customer, not a third party!

Richard