kinks

[Thomas Walsh]

And surely now the 'Whole scene going' Sunny Afternoon clip will also now be set in stone for generations as a piece of wobbly jelly music.....

[ajsmith]

>>>>>I could see how the Autumn Almanac and Wonderboy clips would be the first to be cut for these reasons, as aren't they lower quality trasfers from foreign archives? The same reasonign can't be applied to the Felix clip though[/quote]

No, they're perfectly good quality t/rs, same as with anything else sold to / recovered from overseas TV (and certainly much better quality than the very grainy Whole Scene Going clip, which is being included)!

Okay, point taken: guess I was just straining to come up for a reason why they weren't included. At least they were on the recent Kinks Kollected DVD, (along with the DES promo and PGTS Days) so their exclusion (on space grounds) is a little bit more justifiable than the Felix songs.

>>>>>So if those clips of Lola and Apeman are not even from TOTP, where does the "at the BBC" angle even come into it?

I really really don't think the Lola and Apeman visuals will be anything other than the regular known TOTP performances. Admittedly the tracklisting info is somewhat ambiguously worded, but I take "Film" to mean "has visuals" (since everything on the DVD is suffixed with this word) and "alternative version" to refer to live vocals over the record on TOTP. For one, there is no known promo video for Lola anyway, so unless they've dug up something seriously rare and undreamt of it's going to the the regular TOTP Lola. Outside chance the Apeman could be the promo video but I strongly suspect the same applies and it's the TOTP. I think one thing you can be assured of is that all this material will orginate from the BBC, so the suggestion that they buy in non-BBC material is unfair.

[Deleted]

I was in talks with one guy about this DVD last year. I was told the alternate 'Apeman' is a new find and is a filmed insert. I presume this will be the standard promo or maybe a specially filmed TOTP film, but it is not the ZDF held TOTP performance.

[ajsmith]

May 23, 2012 21:10:55 GMT @footstomper said:

I was in talks with one guy about this DVD last year. I was told the alternate 'Apeman' is a new find and is a filmed insert. I presume this will be the standard promo or maybe a specially filmed TOTP film, but it is not the ZDF held TOTP performance.

Interesting- if it's a new find you'd think it wouldn't be the usual promo-but we'll see.
I stand my prediction Re "Lola" though - the TOTP clip is the only known contemporary 1970 performance of the song, so it's almost certain to be used: if anything different turns up in it's place it will be interesting to say the least! Again, we'll see.

[Thomas Walsh]

This may be a very silly question but is there an anti-Bob Pratt policy at the BEEB regarding comercially releasing his clips..? Is there something legal involved? I'm just throwing that out there . I'm a little dumb on the subject so apologies but is there? I also don't want to seem sensationalist but unless there was a very strong legal/personal reason for not putting the 'Julie Felix' clips on this release then they may as well have spit on Pete Quaife's grave. Disgraceful treatment of a founder member of one of the greatest ever bands.

[Deleted]

May 24, 2012 0:59:48 GMT Thomas Walsh said:

This may be a very silly question but is there an anti-Bob Pratt policy at the BEEB regarding comercially releasing his clips..? Is there something legal involved? I'm just throwing that out there . I'm a little dumb on the subject so apologies but is there? I also don't want to seem sensationalist but unless there was a very strong legal/personal reason for not putting the 'Julie Felix' clips on this release then they may as well have spit on Pete Quaife's grave. Disgraceful treatment of a founder member of one of the greatest ever bands.

I don't think that's the problem Thomas.
Martin Barden, when talking about the 'Electric Warrior' boxset recently stated "That Hot Love was licensed directly from the BBC for this release. It came from Bob Pratt's tapes originally".
So they had no problem with Bob Pratt footage.

[Deleted]

May 23, 2012 19:48:45 GMT ajsmith said:

I really really don't think the Lola and Apeman visuals will be anything other than the regular known TOTP performances. Admittedly the tracklisting info is somewhat ambiguously worded,

I think one thing you can be assured of is that all this material will orginate from the BBC, so the suggestion that they buy in non-BBC material is unfair

We'll see what's what when the DVD materialises, I guess. You may be right about the wording on that list though.

The point I was making about BBC material though is that if the company releasing this set had looked fully into the potential video possibilities, they'd be painfully aware that there is actually very little BBC material in existence from the band's most famous era. So it might have been better to just accept this and make the accompanying DVD a general clip one and harvest material from wherever, rather than limiting to just BBC material - it would have made a lot more sense and opened up many possibilities (and the DVD would not look as anaemic as it does!).

There is, by the way, one other existing Lola colour performance, which is from U.S. TV (which would also be outside of the BBC only remit). The BBC performance is not the sole version - but it's the best.

To Mike: When you say about the ZDF-held Apeman performance, do you mean the TOTP appearance? If so, the BBC also have this complete (without Disco cutaways). It's on the famous 1970-71 compilation reel. I think it has turned up on TOTP2 about once as well. Someone else here will be able to say for certain though.

[ajsmith]

Laurence, when you say there s another existing 1970 TV appearance for Lola, are you talking about the David Frost appearance? Have you seen this? I've never seen confirmation that this exists, would love to know more if it does though!

The "Apeman" TOTP appearance was included in the equally contested "Kinks at the BBC" BBC4 show from last July- at the time it was speculated on here that it could have been the first time the BBC have shown it since first broadcast, since no one could remember it being on TOTP2.

[Deleted]

Yes, David Frost - that's it! I'd forgotten which show it was from. Slightly later than the TOTP appearance though, i'd say (1971?), judging by the appearance of the band in it. A brief clip was used in something not so long ago. Possibly it was in that Imagine documentary on Ray Davies. I shall have to dig it out and see. The clip seems to exist on colour VT though as I saw a short snatch of it.

Apeman: yes, I was just putting Mike in the picture fully as it seemed from what he said that he assumed the clip only existed at ZDF.

[Deleted]

Laurence, yes, when I refer to the ZDF held 'Apeman' I do indeed mean the TOTP performance. I forget this is held by the BBC as it is so rarely seen. I always seem to include it with the other wiped footage held by ZDF, my mistake I'm afraid.
I have contacted someone I was talking to about this DVD and am awaiting a response. He was most certainly aware of the Julie Felix performances at the time. He did tell me an alternate 'Apeman' had been located. When I enquired about it being a different Top Of The Pops appearance I was told and I quote "The second Apeman performance is an in the studio cut in with the filmed insert. Nice but no great shakes". That's all I know for now but I'll try and find out more.

[ajsmith]

May 24, 2012 9:17:52 GMT @laurencepiper said:

Yes, David Frost - that's it! I'd forgotten which show it was from. Slightly later than the TOTP appearance though, i'd say (1971?), judging by the appearance of the band in it. A brief clip was used in something not so long ago. Possibly it was in that Imagine documentary on Ray Davies. I shall have to dig it out and see. The clip seems to exist on colour VT though as I saw a short snatch of it.

Apeman: yes, I was just putting Mike in the picture fully as it seemed from what he said that he assumed the clip only existed at ZDF.

Hi Laurence- I know the brief clip you're referring to, from the 2010 Imaginary Man doc- it's been speculated (though never confirmed for sure)that this is from It's Lulu, from September 1973, where the band performed their 3-year old hit, and this seems most likely given the bands slightly different appearance.

The David Frost appearance was in July 1970, so they're likely to have looked very similar to how they looked the surviving 1970 TOTP in this clip, were it to exist.

I'd say on balance the Imaginary Man clip was from it's Lulu. Incidentally It's Lulu was a BBC show, but I'd still put money on the regular 1970 TOTP appearing on the DVD- you never know though.

(all info here from Doug Hinman's "All Day And All Of The Night book- invaluable!)

[Deleted]

Ah, right. You could be correct that it's Lulu. However, the U.S. version of Frost's show seems to exist more fully than it's U.K. counterpart so i'd be surprised if this appearance didn't exist.

[Deleted]

Found some info via another forum on why the Julie Felix performances were left off this Kinks collection. I think it would have been far better to delay this release to ensure all the material was included. It's highly unlikely we'll get another release like this in the near future.

From Russell Smith's Facebook page yesterday:

There was material left off the BBC set for the most stupid and mundane reasons, as everyone hopefully understands now the release date was set in stone. At the 11th hour the live 1965 Joe Loss set was uncovered and the BBC had the masters for the Julie Felix and Pop Goes the '60s out on loan and could not recall to meet the dead line. Interaction with the BFI proved interesting and we could not liberate two unseen performances from them in time - but as you will appreciate it's just life. But it still ended up as a stupendous set and I hope you enjoy many years of hard work by the team.
__________________

[Deleted]

On an American based forum I grumbled about the Julie Felix footage being missing from the set and posted a YouTube clip to show everyone what SHOULD had been the very first thing to be chosen for inclusion. It got a great reception. However, I was then informed rather sternly by somebody claiming to be involved in the making of this set that it wasn't available for "copyright reasons" but stated that the compilers knew all about the footage.

So why the hell didn't they wait a little longer to clear it or whatever was holding it back? It's not as if 2012 is any major Kinks anniversary is it?

The BBC had that footage out "on loan?" Who on Earth to? Surely they'd have back up copies?

[Deleted]

That's exactly what I thought Phillip. The BBC had the footage out on loan to who and why no back up copy?
The exact same thing happened with The Ramones 'It's Alive 1974-1996' DVD. Everything in the BBC archive was included bar one OGWT performance from 1985 of 'Mamas Boy' which is mentioned as being aired but unable to be found in the BBC archive. Around the same time an Australian pal of mine sent me a DVD from 'Rage' in Australia which included a pristeen 'Mamas Boy' from the OGWT. So did the Beeb just send their original to Australia and more importantly, did they get it back?