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Post by Gareth R on Nov 3, 2003 16:29:00 GMT
It's not really about foretelling a future, it just seems generally incredibly short-sighted for the BBC and all the other TV companies of the time to destroy any of their archive material at all
With the perfect 20/20 vision of hindsight, it may well appear to be incredibly shortsighted... but when the broadcasters were destroying material, they didn't have the benefit of any hindsight.
All they knew was that their archives were full of programmes whose rights had expired. They could neither repeat them nor sell them abroad without spending a great deal of time and, more importantly, money renegotiating the rights
Many people forget now that even in the 60s and early 70s, viewers complained bitterly about the number of repeats. Hence, it was generally considered a better use of resources to spend money making new programmes than re-clearing old ones... and once colour came in, nobody wanted B&W stuff any more.
You might think that the "Beano" and Dandy" are lightweight fluff as well, but, by jingo they were far-thining enough to keep a full archive of comics
I think you'll find that the rights issues pertaining to comic art and scripts are somewhat different to those that pertained to television programmes in the 50s, 60s and 70s, and hence you're comparing apples and oranges.
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Post by Harry on Nov 3, 2003 16:47:42 GMT
Well, It doesn't help anyone by telling them they are deluded just because they don't share your view on past archive mistakes, Gareth (or indeed the accusing tome of your asking how many programmes he's returned personally. I'd be offended by that if I was him). I understood Lawrence's point and the way he made it. If you don't like Dr.Who, fair enough, but not everyone agrees. Seems to me that Andy wasn't talking much like a TV buff at all with his divisive remarks. That's MY view.
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Post by Ian on Nov 3, 2003 16:59:16 GMT
[quote author=Guest-Gareth R
'and once colour came in, nobody wanted B&W stuff any more'.
So why did so much early COLOUR stuff get wiped too? Nice theory. Doesn't stand up.
Regardless of rights issues and talk of crystal balls and all the rest, the fact remains that a LOT of stuff was wiped by all TV companies that, even at the time, it could clearly have been seen to be historic / notable / popular (insert adjective of your choice).
Why is this thread degenerating into a series of personal attacks by those with an intolerance of a different view? If those being attacked have any sense, they'll not even rise to the bait!
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Post by Simon Mclean on Nov 3, 2003 17:22:25 GMT
Now, I used to watch the programme, but think it a shame it has probably (more than any other) been responsible for bad conceptions of missing television.
[/quote]
I find this comment somewhat perplexing, to be honest. What are these bad conceptions?
Is it that the return of a missing episode of Doctor Who given more coverage than, say, a 'Boyd QC' or a 'Blackmail'? That interest in Who draws attention away from other missing shows? Maybe, but unfortunately Doctor Who is one of the few old shows with a public image sufficiently high enough to make an episode discovery newsworthy. The return of an 'Adam Adamant' or a 'Z-Cars' is good, but at the end of the day, it won't mean a lot to most people.
When 'The Likely Lads' episode 'Last Of The Big Spenders' was repeated after its return to the archive, the critical reaction was rather negative, with comments along the lines of 'this should have stayed missing'.
Likewise, when an episode of 'Z-Cars' featuring Joss Ackland was repeated on BBC 2 a couple of years back, I recall people slagging it of as a creaky, stagey piece of old tat.
Bad perceptions of missing shows - but is it Doctor Who's fault, or is it just people's prejudices against old TV in general?
The truth is, most sixties telly - however good it is - doesn't cut it with the contemporary viewer - try showing 'Year Of The Sex Olympics' to Joe Public, and see if they get beyond the funny costumes and period acting styles.
At the very least, Doctor Who has done a lot of good in bringing the cause of missing episodes to people's attention - whether you like it or not, at least it deserves some credit for that!
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Post by SteveP on Nov 3, 2003 21:44:38 GMT
I was present and I read that as the professional television community regard the programme as a long running joke. Is this the same "professional television community" that produce most of today's sanitised, soapy, "so what" tosh? Pot, kettle, black. S. |
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Post by SteveP on Nov 3, 2003 21:48:54 GMT
Oops, forgot to add this to my previous message... Can anyone explain to me why old archive 'Doctor Who' is so popular?Well, strictly speaking it's *not* particularly popular! The last few attempts to show archive DW on terrestrial TV were a resounding failure, and it's only a low seller on DVD. Some DW DVD titles still haven't sold out of their initial print run of 8000 copies despite being on sale for over a year, whereas The Office season 2 sold 143,000 copies in its first week... You're not comparing like for like. What you should be comparing with Who's DVD sales is what "The Office" sells on DVD in 20/25/30 years time (given roughly equivalent costing of the product). Steve |
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Post by Gareth R on Nov 3, 2003 22:42:16 GMT
Well, It doesn't help anyone by telling them they are deluded just because they don't share your view on past archive mistakes, Gareth
Problem is, my view is informed by the *reality* of the situation, as related by the people who were there at the time. The material was destroyed because, for perfectly sound legal and financial reasons, it was genuinely believed that it had no further value.
If you don't like Dr.Who, fair enough
If I don't like Doctor Who, why have I bought every DVD with the exception of the TV movie and Fenric?
I have an interest in the show (as a kid, I was as rabid a DW anorak as anyone), but I'm totally in agreement with Andy about its frankly ludicrous status as an object of veneration among a certain type of (usually) thirtysomething male.
Regardless of rights issues and talk of crystal balls and all the rest, the fact remains that a LOT of stuff was wiped by all TV companies that, even at the time, it could clearly have been seen to be historic / notable / popular (insert adjective of your choice)
I never said that mistakes weren't made - it's part of being human.
What I *was* saying is that anyone who actually believes that through some incredible clairvoyance, the BBC and other broadcasters should, back in the late 60s and early 70s, have foreseen the market for sell-through video of creaky old programmes, needs a serious reality check.
Sadly, however, a small group of supposedly well-informed archive enthusiasts still insists on perpetuating the myth that the broadcasters gleefully burned films and wiped videotapes in the full knowledge that a market for selling videotapes of old programmes direct to the public was going to spring up in the late 1980s...
Still, as I say, there's nothing like the certainty of decades of hindsight to convince you that you always knew so much more than the people who were at the sharp end of the business 30 years ago.
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Post by Andy Henderson on Nov 3, 2003 23:20:25 GMT
I’m not surprised that there has been a defensive backlash against my posting. My intention was not to agitate, but to try to understand why ‘Doctor Who’ is still so popular? How did it generate such devotion and lead to such a clamour for missing episodes? Or is the really the case that a vociferous minority constantly keep the programme going?
The arguments that the BBC just junked without thought seem plausible until you get a better understanding of what IS in that archive.
Most of the important historical events, especially relating to the BBC (o/b’s – special drama etc) are all still intact. I very much doubt (prove me wrong!) that ‘Doctor Who’ was given ‘A’ priority and that is why there was no want to keep it.
A double stab in the back seems to point to the successive production teams allowing their predecessors work to be junked anyway. The only time I could imagine Doctor Who gaining special status would be for ‘special anniversary’ programmes. Other than that – run of the mill.
The National Film Archive could have saved more 60s examples too, but then I’m sure the selection panel had no illusions that it wasn’t the modern equivalent of ‘Henry V – Part II’ and wisely just kept a small sample.
I appreciate Gareth’s support and his very well put arguments. He seems a lone voice of support in a sea of derision. Everything he has said sparks of realism.
Of course I had a similar ‘go’ at TOTP because I could see to a certain extent that the missing threads were going nowhere, just like the ‘missing Doctor Who’ threads go nowhere. There seem to be hundreds of ‘Missing Episode hunters’ and still hundreds of missing episodes.
Inside Windmill Road, there is a shelf filled with filed notes on missing material. I’d say about 95% of that is related to Billy Hartnell’s finest moments. All that effort, but no results. I can’t knock the enthusiasm, but to get at missing episodes of any programme you really have to get into serious film collecting. Either that or comb the BBC from inside as has been happening recently. The fans seem to like piling on endless theories about what might have happened and where these episodes are, but all that effort has produced very little fruit.
When I started collecting 16mm films, I quickly found that Doctor Who fans had already been plaguing film dealers. I spoke to quite a few of these dealers and found out that they had no time for these fans. One dealer told me that he always pretended to take down their name and address and would get back to them etc etc. Of course, he wouldn’t have as he saw them as timewasters. I also found out that some of the dealers had offered other BBC material, but they never usually got takers. Why should I trust the dealers? Often I don’t, but I took the time to get to know them and didn’t plague them with impossible requests on impulse.
In the meantime, other BBC Television programmes were passing right under the fans noses. They seemed to be unaware. Which is why I stepped in to do something before it was too late.
The fans sometimes still appear at film conventions; ‘excuse me I don’t know if you can help me, you see I’m looking for any telerecorded episodes from the Doctor Who series in b/w?’ and the dealers just shrug.
In fact, they know the worth of these prints and wouldn’t be handing them out if they had them.
That ‘IF’ is very important because I have made a point of asking dealers about passage of these episodes through private hands. This is difficult as often a story title is reduced to ‘that Dalek one’. By using this knowledge and constantly surveying the film collecting scene in the UK, it is fairly easy to arrive at the conclusion that there probably are missing episodes, but they have not entered the open market. There are suspect collectors and the BBC has already been told as much information as I can reasonably predict.
It is dispiriting to turn up at a bumper ‘Missing Believed, Wiped’ and hear someone say something like ‘not bad, but they might have found some Doctor Who’. As if that was much more important than the missing ‘Till Death’, ‘Dad’s Army’ that screened only a couple of hours ago.
I never said anywhere that I didn’t like the programme, but the action of some of its fans has got in my way to find other BBC material and in one case lead to the destruction of other film material. Some of this is almost too painful to relate. I must admit, it had coloured my own conception of the programme to the hypothetical point where a pact to wipe some existing episodes to get some other BBC material back would seem a good thing to me. So we’ll have ‘Bam, Pow, Zap!’ back as the first fair trade under this scheme?
I’m not the only one to feel this way and my experiences of talking to some of the people involved in archiving reveals that ‘shock – horror’ they can’t be bothered with the programme, but appreciate that it has a following, however repellent that could become.
If I were to use a simple analogy, if Doctor Who fans ran the local library, it may well be full of Target books and little else (oh, all right throw in a few Quatermass too, but only in Nigel Kneale gives permission – according to rumour etc etc).
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Brian D not logged in
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Post by Brian D not logged in on Nov 3, 2003 23:39:45 GMT
It's a while since we've had the 'hindsight is always easy' argument wheeled out to exonerate the decision makers who decimated the archive. It does have some validity - well in fact, only one valid reason to my mind - the financial case. But can anyone honestly say that by the late sixties it was not possible to see that, for example, The Beatles were something special and that recordings of their performances were likely to be of historical value?
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Post by Adam James Smith on Nov 4, 2003 0:18:28 GMT
>>Of course I had a similar ‘go’ at TOTP because I could see to a certain extent that the missing threads were going nowhere, just like the ‘missing Doctor Who’ threads go nowhere. There seem to be hundreds of ‘Missing Episode hunters’ and still hundreds of missing episodes.
To be fair, the archive situation of TOTP and Doctor Who are very different. While every available piece of air land and sea seems to have been combed for lost "Doctor Whos", whole reels of bits of lost TOTPs seems to be floating about that no-one can seem to get back to the BBC. I would say in the case of TOTP, there are PLENTY of not-so-missing episodes and not enough interest in getting them back properly. I persoanlly find the TOTP threads very interesting in expanding my knowledge, even if they don't seem to help get any of the clips properly recovered.
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Post by Harry on Nov 4, 2003 2:05:42 GMT
1. Most of the important historical events, especially relating to the BBC (o/b’s – special drama etc) are all still intact. 2. Of course I had a similar ‘go’ at TOTP because I could see to a certain extent that the missing threads were going nowhere, just like the ‘missing Doctor Who’ threads go nowhere. 3. I also found out that some of the dealers had offered other BBC material, but they never usually got takers. In the meantime, other BBC Television programmes were passing right under the fans noses. 4. I must admit, it had coloured my own conception of the programme to the hypothetical point where a pact to wipe some existing episodes to get some other BBC material back would seem a good thing to me. So we’ll have ‘Bam, Pow, Zap!’ back as the first fair trade under this scheme? 1. Absolute rubbish! The Apollo 11 coverage alone disproves this idea. Apart from historical events or o/bs etc, what about the many Beatles TV appearances and early Dennis Potter / David Mercer plays etc etc? Certainly the former were a recognised phenomenon by the late '60s and indeed the latter were recognised as outstanding writers by then too. There is a large quantity of other notable programming that is similarly missing. Our views on what constitutes "notable" may differ to a degree but it is stuff that was notable at the time - not just with hindsight. There are clearly two schools of thought on the archive situation in decades past and there is no clear consensus of views on this one way or the other. Opinions differ and it doesn't help when people like Gareth start to call others deluded just because they don't share their own view. You can throw "facts" at us and we can counter them with others. In the end we all have to respect each others' honestly held views. 2. Well, if you don't get any enlightenment reading about TOTP, you don't have to read about it (it's a separate thread). It's just possible all the talk just may once in a while lead to a find. Anyway, this is a forum for people to chat about programmes, and as TOTP has it's own section then that's just what people are doing! Fair enough, you don't find the show important. Many others DO. Had a more representative selection been kept in the archive of this show, it may have silenced some of the criticism. Just because you have heard all this stuff before yourself doesn't mean others can't talk about it again, Andy. We're not all as jaded as you! 3. This is what a lot of this boils down to - personal resentment that Doctor Who sells and other shows don't. We all wish there was the same level of interest for other shows too but you can't blame 'Who for the fact that there isn't. Leave your prejudices aside. 4. Well, all I can say to that is thank god you aren't in charge of archives! We should welcome ANY shows back to the archives, whatever they are. What an outregeous suggestion. We'd all like to recover (for example) "Bam Pow Zap!" and a lot of other TV too, but not at the cost of losing something else. Your comments don't endear you to anyone, Andy. We should all be helping each other in the cause of missing episodes. |
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Post by Ian on Nov 4, 2003 2:35:58 GMT
Just to reiterate what Adam said, the archive situations of TOTP and Dr.Who are totally different. The latter enjoys (by comparison with a lot of other '60s / '70s shows anyway) a fairly healthy archive status although Troughton is heavily under-represented. The former show is almost non-existent in the archives for almost it's first decade though despite being the premiere UK pop music programme for 40 years, having a very strong interest both from music and TV fans.
There are a lot of TOTP clips out there whose existence is commonly known about. Despite this though, the BBC seems to drag it's feet in retrieving footage. Many are exasperated at this as although the corporation seem to like paying lip service to supporting missing episode hunts etc it's sometimes hard for individuals to get them interested in lost footage that it's proved there is a market for (this happens with all shows, not just TOTP).
Whatever, it does seem that the BBC do owe us a chance to see again shows that were so swiftly wiped. Actively retrieving as much as they can would generate goodwill in this respect. They aren't the same organisation that made those fateful decisions any more but sometimes you do wonder how much they have actually learned from past errors.
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Post by John R on Nov 4, 2003 2:53:40 GMT
I’m not surprised that there has been a defensive backlash against my posting. My intention was not to agitate, but to try to understand why ‘Doctor Who’ is still so popular? How did it generate such devotion and lead to such a clamour for missing episodes? Or is the really the case that a vociferous minority constantly keep the programme going? Which is presumably why you started this thread - you don't know anyone who can debate the case 'for' Who, and you weren't looking in the right places to find them. Look at some of the internet sites (so you don't have to meet the scary ones in person!), post on the Dr Who forums and ask the fans in general why they like the series - the answers are at your fingertips, even if you disagree with them. It'll probably all boil down to people finding the show fun, for any number of reasons. Some people aren't interested in old TV for it's historical or artistic value, they want to be entertained - and Dr Who does that for them, especially the older stuff which generally seems to be perceived as the best. I think you'll find very few people who consider Dr Who to be high-art. It's only a few people debating on the internet - I suspect they only ever mention these theories on this forum and the like, and in the grander scheme of things don't take it as seriously as you perhaps imagine they do. If successive production teams hadn't caused the series to drop in quality so badly over the final decade, and had still been producing a programme equal in (perceived?) quality to the earlier series, the missing episode issue would possibly be of a lot less interest! ;D But that's all they are - threads on an internet forum. The people contributing might not see it as seriously as you do. It only takes a few seconds, minutes at most, to post something on the net - they're probably nothing like how you imagine them to be. A lot of these "missing episode hunters" most likely do no more than type 'Dr Who 16mm' into a search engine when they're bored - they're not expecting to find anything really, and they don't take it seriously at all. I think you've just ended up with a false perception of what these people are really like. What if there are no more prints left to find? Even if these people had put in more serious and detailed efforts, they'd not turn anything up. And if that's how these people want to (and enjoy) spending their time, that's up to them. And if people who aren't keen on Dr Who knock their enthusiasm, might they not ignore anything else they found purely out of spite?  Again, I think you're overestimating the amount of effort these fans put in - enthusiasm is easy and quick to show, but that's all it is. Groups debate conspiracy theories, but they don't genuinely expect to come up with the definitive, true answer of who killed Kennedy or whatever - the fun is in the enthusiasm for the debate. I think you're imagining that these fans are putting the same amount of effort into finding Dr Who prints as you put into finding various prints, but I'll bet it's not like that in most cases. It's not surprising though is it? If you don't know that everyone else is asking the same questions, and sometimes putting in even more detailed and serious research, of course you're going to ask these questions. Dr Who is a minority interest - if a lone fan didn't know anyone else keen on the show, and didn't follow the internet newsgroups and magazines, etc (perhaps this was a time before the internet!), he might not know that these leads had been followed up, and that the prints didn't turn up all the time. Maybe the fans didn't like those programmes? Why would they want to invest time and money in something they had no interest in? What about the most recently found Dr Who episode, 'The Lion'? Flukes can happen... They might not be thinking of "importance" - they might be thinking about entertainment, and to someone whose favourite show is Dr Who, of course they're going to say something like that. Maybe it is a bit selfish, but that's the way people are - as demonstrated by your acquaintance who decided to destroy other material in a fit of pique. Exactly - you seem to take this all a lot more seriously than other people, and sometimes perhaps fail to realise that to other people it's all just a bit of fun. That's a very narrow view-point, and if you really want to find out what the majority of the tiny minority group called 'Dr Who fans' are like, you'll have to talk to them!  You can't make judgements about them if you've only heard them talking about one subject - I don't think a politician only thinks about politics because that's what I see him talking about on TV, and it's what he's almost always asked to talk about... Would you want people to judge you just on your memorable 'mini-rants' about TOTP and Dr Who? I'd think you'd want people to also consider about less memorable things like your advice on the old Roobarb forum about the best Hitchcöck (the forum censor-gizmo still doesn't like names like that!) DVDs from each region, etc, and RKO DVDs available in excellent quality from France. |
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Post by Ed Stradling on Nov 4, 2003 10:04:09 GMT
Andy
You're takling abouyt different things. The fact that Dr Who fans are largely inadequate, obsessive people does not make the programme any less (or more) worthy of recovery.
The reason Dr Who fans care more than TOTP or "Out of the Unknown" fans is that sci-fi attracts obsessiveness and obsessiveness and general inadequacy often (but not always) go hand in hand. I can absolutely believe your stories about film collectors beating off Who fans with a crappy stick.
On the other hand, a lot of committed Dr Who fans of the programme are huge creative talents many of whom are now becoming highly successful in TV. And they want Power of the Daleks back as much as the mongs do.
And as others have probably pointed out, if it weren't for Dr Who fans, the public awareness of missing archive TV would be a lot lower than it is.
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Post by Laurence Piper on Nov 4, 2003 10:56:06 GMT
Interesting how these threads metamorphose into something else eventually!
As John mentions above, as this is a forum for discussion on missing TV, that is what is talked about almost exclusively. We have no idea generally about the rest of the lives of those we chat with. If we did, we might get a more rounded view of where they're coming from. It all gets very personal when we only see one dimension. If we just talk about Doctor Who or Top Of The Pops all the time here, it seems to give some people the idea that that's all we do.
We are all (or most of us anyway) a lot lighter than what appears to be the case from forums like this. We have fun and a sense of humour, go shopping at Tesco and do other things apart from watching / debating old TV...REALLY!!! This is why a lot of us are not fervent episode hunters for instance; there are not enough hours in the day to follow it all up. We have other things to concentrate on. Get a perspective is what I say.
As I mentioned, it's interesting how these strands can turn in other directions: from a question about why Doctor Who is so popular through to questions about archiving policy through to that old chestnut of entertainment versus art! I don't think anyone said Doctor Who was the latter but it is very good entertainment, a strong concept with a universe all it's own that people like to dip into. These factors largely explain it's popularity, I think. Look no further. Because it's not high art. some take the view that it therefore wasn't necessary to keep the episodes; well, you could argue that, for instance, the long stream of Carry On films are much less artistically driven than Doctor Who is...yet they all exist out there for their many fans to enjoy over again. 'Who fans don't have that luxury.
I'd be happy to chat endlessly (in agreement or disagreement) about any topic relating to old TV generally if people wish...but in person down the pub! I don't wish to spend most of the daytime hours on the internet. I enjoy dipping in to these useful sites a lot but I much prefer to interact with human beings in the flesh, which is what i'm off to do now..!
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You can't make judgements about them if you've only heard them talking about one subject - I don't think a politician only thinks about politics because that's what I see him talking about on TV, and it's what he's almost always asked to talk about... Would you want people to judge you just on your memorable 'mini-rants' about TOTP and Dr Who? I'd think you'd want people to also consider about less memorable things like your advice on the old Roobarb forum about the best Hitchcöck (the forum censor-gizmo still doesn't like names like that!) DVDs from each region, etc, and RKO DVDs available in excellent quality from France.