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Post by Andy Henderson on Nov 3, 2003 0:13:49 GMT
Can anyone explain to me why old archive 'Doctor Who' is so popular? It may have been long running, but other programmes are equally so. With such a wide range of BBC archive material why is this programme treated so favourably?
Clearly it isn't great drama and basically a kids/family show. It had its moments (like any other series). Yet it seems to have been put on a pedestal far outweighting its merits.
Some if the fans seem to have some sort of repressive problem with the 'heresy' that episodes were destroyed. I'm sure that they weren't kept for a good reason. They were the equivalent of pulp comics. Now, we all enjoy a little bit of fun, but I cannot understand how so many actor references, tv references are all linked into this programme, apart from an obsession reflected in an almost like a borderline personality problem.
Now, I used to watch the programme, but think it a shame it has probably (more than any other) been responsible for bad conceptions of missing television.
If the BBC were to get all there science fiction out on DVD, perhaps we could clear the air and stop all these petty obessions.
Just to close, at the BFI TV 100, 'Doctor Who' was in the top ten, when the results were shown the whole audience groaned (not out of affection!). I was present and I read that as the professional television community regard the programme as a long running joke.
In the kingdom of the blind, we know that the one-eyed man is king, but in the world of Doctor Who fans, they may not have even that restricted vision.
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Post by Ron Merritt on Nov 3, 2003 2:26:43 GMT
Well as a long time Doctor Who fan in American I will say the professional television community can kiss it. It's a question of what a person personally likes and obviously a lot of people like Doctor Who or it would'nt have been on so long. Sci Fi fans can be very obsessive I will admit but if that's what they want to see they should'nt be ran down or questioned about it. I'm a fan of the show, buy the vhs tapes and dvds and I can say out of all the shows out there I would rather see some of the Doctor Who episodes returned over anything else. Just frankly because I like the show and that's that.
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Post by Harry on Nov 3, 2003 4:04:08 GMT
Yes, I quite agree. What's the point of posting a long message declaring you don't like the show personally by reeling off loads of subjective "evidence" to support your viewpoint? It doesn't matter what we're all into personally as we're all into finding more lost TV! Apart from Andy, of course, who seems to think that because he doesn't like Dr Who there was obviously a good reason for the BBC not keeping the episodes! Well, the same goes for any show you care to mention if you dislike it enough, from The Wednesday Play to Monty Python to The Ascent Of Man!
I LOVE Dr Who personally and would argue it has had many great dramatic moments in it's history and has developed an internal mythology (which I suspect is probably the reason for it's longevity and continued popularity, which Andy seems to resent). I like plenty of other TV too so it's not a case of "like Dr Who and nothing else". I don't really understand the purpose of this thread at all.
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Post by John R on Nov 3, 2003 4:15:55 GMT
I wouldn't normally get involved in unending debates, but I can't sleep and I'm a bit bored! So I'll have a go. :-) Can anyone explain to me why old archive 'Doctor Who' is so popular? It may have been long running, but other programmes are equally so. With such a wide range of BBC archive material why is this programme treated so favourably? My guess: Dr Who ran for a long time and for whatever reason picked up a fair number of 'fans' (as opposed to 'viewers'). The programme started to go downhill fast, the older fans started saying how it used to be better in the old days, and the younger fans listened and tried to find out if that was true. When the fans got a chance to see the episodes from the time the older fans talked about, either on commercial VHS or bootlegs, it really was better for the most part than what they'd seen on TV in the 80s: still the same programme they'd grown to love, but better (comparatively speaking) overall. Then they found out a lot of the old episodes no longer existed, but that they sounded quite good so wanted to see them. As such, whenever one of them (or a clip) turns up, they want to find out what all the fuss was about (and the older fans want to prove their point). It's probably treated favourably compared to other old BBC shows because the fans are prepared to pay money to see it again, surely? There might be a large number of people out there who'd like to see Z Cars again (or even for the first time!), but not enough who would actually fork-out money for it (one VHS was released, and if it sold well then more would surely have followed). Maybe because it's popular with people who aren't interested in older/wiped TV as a whole? Those fans turn up at events like Missing Believed Wiped (or forums like this) mainly because of their interest in the one show, and so haven't got many other things they feel able to contribute about - creating an impression to some people that it's far more important than any other show, when really it's just numbers? But wouldn't fans of any show be disappointed (in the home-video age) that episodes of their favourite programme no longer existed? It's only a tiny (and vocal!) minority of people who think of junkings as "heresy" and their extreme opinions might have nothing to do with a liking for Dr Who... If you got the same people *really* interested in Z Cars or Dixon of Dock Green they'd more than likely turn rabid when the loss of those programmes was mentioned as well. Or are you including the people who criticise the BBC's lack of foresight? I don't think there's anything wrong in people wanting to debate that - after all, plenty of other matters where it's far to late to do anything still get discussed, and the participants don't get mocked (eg. war related issues). I suspect Dr Who appears in references because it's almost like a common language (if I'm reading your meaning correctly) - a lot of people interested in the missing episode issue or archive TV became interested in it because of first learning about it via old Dr Who. It's a quick way of explaining something or getting people interested. More people became interested in the recently found Adam Adamant episode when they learnt that Patrick Troughton was in it. Presumably you see that as a double-edged sword - on one hand the MBW screening will be more heavily attended, which means it looks like archive TV can still be quite popular, but on the other hand it means that the event is almost 'hijacked' by Dr Who fans rather than being attended by people who might learn more about lost TV in general? Which would you prefer? Archive TV more popular with Dr Who fans involved, or archive TV less popular without Dr Who fans? I've got a feeling this forum would be a lot less populated if people had never become interested in Dr Who. Like I said before, it's had good effects and bad ones - and people could debate til they drop whether the bad ones outweigh the good, etc. I don't get that bit - the fans wouldn't disappear, the 'lost' episodes would still be lost, and you might get even more people turning into general fans of archive/lost TV! A lot of fans might agree that the "professional television community" thought it was a joke, even whilst it was still running! :-) And assuming it was in the top 10 because of DW fans rather than archive TV fans, it goes back to the hijacking idea - fans of one show in particular affecting a poll that should have been voted for by people interested in all areas of TV - it might not necessarily be that the programme is utter cack. That sort of thing can happen in any poll though (Lord of the Rings). A few years back a lot of ITV bosses listed the show in their top ten favourite programmes of all time, so some people in the TV community enjoyed it (just not from the channel that was actually responsible!). What's your definition of "fan"? How do you imagine an average Dr Who fan to be? Just because some lose sleep at night trying to resolve the Doctor saying "ABC" in one episode and "XYZ" in another, or can't watch TV without feeling angry at the BBC for burning some 16mm film inserts, it doesn't mean they're all mad! Just they're the ones you're most likely to hear about, or remember. It's a bit like religion and fundamentalists - you don't condemn a large number of people just because of a vocal minority who get all the (negative)attention. At this point I'd just like to point out that my own insomnia (the reason I've allowed myself to waffle so much) is due to a virus, and not due to worrying about how Dimensions in Time fits into the series continuity. |
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Post by Adam James Smith on Nov 3, 2003 4:19:19 GMT
>>>Can anyone explain to me why old archive 'Doctor Who' is so popular? It may have been long running, but other programmes are equally so. With such a wide range of BBC archive material why is this programme treated so favourably?
Because it's a cult programme with a rabid fanbase that care fervently about it and will buy archive releases in droves, whereas most old archive TV has (sadly) no fanbase, and is forgotten/not even known about by 99.999 per cent of the public.
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>>Some if the fans seem to have some sort of repressive problem with the 'heresy' that episodes were destroyed. I'm sure that they weren't kept for a good reason.
No, they weren't kept for the same BAD reason as everything else. The shortsighted archival policy of the BBC at the time.
>>Now, I used to watch the programme, but think it a shame it has probably (more than any other) been responsible for bad conceptions of missing television.
I couldn't see how this could happen. Missing television doesn't have a bad rep, (more an invisible rep!) and I would say that it's certainly not been affected by Dr Who.
>>If the BBC were to get all there science fiction out on DVD, perhaps we could clear the air and stop all these petty obessions.
Frankly, no. Dr who is the BBC biggest sci-fi show by a million country miles, and Nothing's gonna change that. Of course it would be brilliant to have thing like "Out of the Unknown" out on DVD with Dr Who-style extras but there isn't the market for such a release. You'd just end up with some bulging bargain bins.
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Post by Adam James Smith on Nov 3, 2003 4:21:43 GMT
dammit! Beaten to a response!
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Post by Ian Woodhouse on Nov 3, 2003 12:53:10 GMT
I can't believe that someone who has a real passion for vintage television and missing episodes can make these sorts of comments. I can't quote specifics but surely it's possible (if not probable) that in ceaselessly searching for lost Dr Who episodes (it would appear this and Dad's Army have had the monopoly since the hunt really took off) have unearthed other shows long-forgotten?
There is a lot of snobbery out there amongst vintage tv buffs about Dr Who and if you don't like it then fine but to casually dismiss it as not "great drama" and "a kids/family show" seems a little strange to me. A lot of snobbery arises out of the fact that something is very popular but it's all to easy (and IMHO lazy) to cast aside something if it appeals to the masses.
Apart from anything else, vastly popular shows like Dr Who keep the topic of missing episodes in the public eye and whilst to buffs it would be wonderful to retrieve recordings of, for example, Nigel Kneale's The Road, the public in general are not going to be particularly bothered.
I'm a fan of the series and always have been. If it wasn't for Dr Who I would never have become interested in vintage tv. If I hadn't joined a group of Dr Who fans in a draughty room back in the early 1980s I would never have got to see Out of the Unknown, Adam Adamant, Quatermass...the list goes on. We're not all "rabid", don't all wear scarves and not all of us are over-sensitive to criticism of the series. God knows, if you're a fan you're more than used to having the p*ss taken out of you I can assure you. But please make the criticism specific and not a sweeping generalisation.
I've just got back from Panopticon in London and whilst it was a disappointment so far as guests were concerned, the reaction to the Power of the Daleks trailer was wonderful, completely unexpected.
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Post by Laurence Piper on Nov 3, 2003 12:59:17 GMT
Regardless of the fanbase factor (which didn't really kick in for many years), Not many shows stay popular with the general public for 20 years or more - it must have been doing SOMETHING right.
Many quality talents worked on the show - in font of and behind the camera. This is reflected in the best of the end product (not all the time - there have been many lows too). There ARE obsessive fans of most things - be it Star Trek or whatever - but it seems like you are tarring all people that like Doctor Who with the same brush. Can't we like that show AND many other things too then?
The BBC wiped the episodes for a good reason? Not as far as I can see - but that applies to ALL the many hundreads of hours of memorable programmes that also went the same way. It certainly wasn't for any artistic / qualitative reasons, as you like to think. The only reason they were wiped was the same one as for Till Death Us Do Part, all those classic single plays, Out Of The Unknown, the Apollo 11 coverage, , Colour Me Pop, Q5, A For Andromeda, Z-Cars et al - namely BBC short-sightedness and (short-term) economic expediency!
Doctor Who is regularly in the public eye; there are often references to it in TV comedy sketches , magazine articles etc etc. This has all started over again now with news of a new series in 2005. Therefore, the show is always "out there" and generates an appetite for more of the same. I don't take a lot of notice of much of the ephemera. I'd just as soon see other missing TV recovered and released / screened at events, but that doesn't mean I begrudge others their exclusive interest in one series. It all helps raise the profile of archive programmes in some small way.
Why waste time putting down a specific show and it's followers by starting a thread on the subject? Everyone posting on this site should be united in welcoming recoveries of ANY missing TV material. We don't need to shoot ourselves in the foot this way. Maybe this thread was a stab at whipping up some controversy on what has became a rather sedate site recently..? TV buffs...don't ya just love 'em!
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Post by John on Nov 3, 2003 13:06:09 GMT
No, I can't believe that those comments came from someone with a (supposed) passion for archive television either!
Who cares who likes what as long as we are united in the purpose of replenishing the archives by finding more missing material?
OK so you don't like Doctor Who - get over it and don't take it out on the rest of us!
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Post by Ian on Nov 3, 2003 13:19:17 GMT
Oh, he had a go at TOTP fans a while back too. Take no notice. Andy's a TV buff that hates TV!
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Post by Gareth R on Nov 3, 2003 14:36:17 GMT
The only reason they were wiped was... BBC short-sightedness
Laurence, why do you persist in your delusion that the BBC in the 60s and early 70s was somehow supposed to be able to predict that in decades to come there would be a market for selling this this creaky old programming direct to the public?
If no other broadcaster was able to foretell the future in that way - after all, the BBC was far from the only company that destroyed archive programming once its rights had expired - why should the Been have been expected to?
No, I can't believe that those comments came from someone with a (supposed) passion for archive television either!
"Supposed" passion? So if you won't bore for Britain about lightweight fluff like Doctor Who or TOTP, you can't really be committed to archive television?
I really can't see how you can possibly doubt Andy's passion for his subject. After all, how many missing programmes have *you* recovered?
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Post by Gareth R on Nov 3, 2003 14:44:28 GMT
Oops, forgot to add this to my previous message...
Can anyone explain to me why old archive 'Doctor Who' is so popular?
Well, strictly speaking it's *not* particularly popular! The last few attempts to show archive DW on terrestrial TV were a resounding failure, and it's only a low seller on DVD.
Some DW DVD titles still haven't sold out of their initial print run of 8000 copies despite being on sale for over a year, whereas The Office season 2 sold 143,000 copies in its first week...
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Post by Ian Woodhouse on Nov 3, 2003 15:19:55 GMT
No, I can't believe that those comments came from someone with a (supposed) passion for archive television either! Whilst John would appear to be agreeing with me I'd just like to say that in my original post I, certainly, am not doubting Andy's passion for vintage tv. There is most definitely nothing "supposed" about his passion and we should be grateful to him and his efforts. |
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Post by Ed Stradling on Nov 3, 2003 15:25:44 GMT
The point being made is that for someone with supposedly a passion for old TV programmes, Andy’s dismissive comments were to say the least surprising. Personally, I think Dad’s Army is marginally less funny than cancer, but whilst I might say so occasionally, I would never dream of somehow implying that less effort should be made to recover it as compared to other programmes.
Doctor Who was as you know a hugely inconsistent series and seldom did it scale the heights of the great TV dramas of its day, but whether you like it or not, it remains popular and not just with those who have “personality problems”. At the event this weekend, established stars like Mark Gatiss & Jon Culshaw were there not because they are stars but because they are fans of the programme.
I find it amusing that Andy choose to concentrate on the reaction to the BFI award, rather than the arguably more important fact that Dr Who was voted into the top 10.
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Post by Adam James Smith on Nov 3, 2003 15:26:46 GMT
God, I wish I knew how to "quote properly!!!
>>>>Laurence, why do you persist in your delusion that the BBC in the 60s and early 70s was somehow supposed to be able to predict that in decades to come there would be a market for selling this this creaky old programming direct to the public?
If no other broadcaster was able to foretell the future in that way - after all, the BBC was far from the only company that destroyed archive programming once its rights had expired - why should the Beeb have been expected to?
It's not really about foretelling a future, it just seems generally incredibly short-sighted for the BBC and all the other TV companies of the time to destroy any of their archive material at all. It still seems like such an unbeleiveably wanton act of vandalism. You might think that the "Beano" and Dandy" are lightweight fluff as well, but, by jingo they were far-thining enough to keep a full archive of comics.
>>>"Supposed" passion? So if you won't bore for Britain about lightweight fluff like Doctor Who or TOTP, you can't really be committed to archive television?
That's not what he meant and you know it. The point is, to criticise Doctor Who's (minimally) higher profile vis-a -vis archive material is churlish and pointless. It just is, for various reasons out-lined in the posts above. Getting indignant about ti's not gonna do much good.
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>>Some DW DVD titles still haven't sold out of their initial print run of 8000 copies despite being on sale for over a year, whereas The Office season 2 sold 143,000 copies in its first week...
That is surprising. I really thought it would be a little more than that.
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