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Post by John Wall on Aug 17, 2023 22:09:19 GMT
Serious question for those who were old enough to remember: when did it become apparent that Doctor Who had changed from just another show to an elevated status? Given the limitations and the perception of the series at the time, could anyone have justified taking up space saving every episode of what I imagine most adults viewed as a cheapo, melodramatic kids show? The only hint might have been the success of Star Trek after its cancellation because of the moon landing followed by its revival with the cartoons. I'm not a uk resident, but my understanding was during the 1960s uk dr who was a weekly quality sf serial that boys liked in a world of 3-4 channels. As time progresses, things that are quality productions. That we continue watch, gains more followers through generations. For example today many comics are sold to adults who started collecting as children. Around the tom baker era, my recollection is that fandom started to appear and starting their influence. During the 1970s ,Viewers like ian levine started to make connections with the bbc and started getting shows preserved. Two years earlier we would have more. 2 years later, less.But keep in mind that at that point, the life changing interest was with the young. To the adults it was just disposable tv til sue malden became to understand that this was important to the young. Another thing to recall is up until the 1950s, the older generation outgrew children shows.. Now we have 60 years of this where most alive today have fond memories of the show. ( expect that i abhor nuwho) But mid to late 70s. Is when i believe fandom erupted with dwas, dr who weekly( which was a children magazine) etc.. The 60s was really only two UK channels. BBC2 started in 1964 but was 625 lines as opposed to the 405 lines of BBC1 and ITV. Consequently a new, dual standard, TV was required so the ability to receive it was initially limited but grew over time. BBC2 launched colour in 1968. 60s DW was almost on all year - the first six seasons had 42, 39, 45, 43, 40 and 44 episodes. In the 70s DW was only on from the autumn to the spring, a nominal six months and a nominal 25/26 episodes. |
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Post by markperry on Aug 17, 2023 22:54:45 GMT
The complete stories of Season 6 that still survive are incrediblely lucky as most episodes were sent to the BFI and the parts left behind remained at the BBC, given the unpredictable nature of what was junked next the BBC they could so easily junked those random episodes at any time.
Thinking about it makes me wonder if the 2 missing episodes of The Invasion went to the BFI or were victims of the random junking culture back then.
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Post by George D on Aug 17, 2023 23:30:14 GMT
Keep in mind,when ian levine helped stop the purging in 1978, he was apx.25. A college age /young man. Dr who was only 15 years old at the time.. Since then, we are about 45 years later.
As an older man, 10 years seems to fly
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Post by John Wall on Aug 17, 2023 23:58:29 GMT
Serious question for those who were old enough to remember: when did it become apparent that Doctor Who had changed from just another show to an elevated status? Given the limitations and the perception of the series at the time, could anyone have justified taking up space saving every episode of what I imagine most adults viewed as a cheapo, melodramatic kids show? The only hint might have been the success of Star Trek after its cancellation because of the moon landing followed by its revival with the cartoons. Just from Searching around on places like broadwcast.com It would definitely appear to be the mid 70's. Tom was screened heavily all over the world, in fact you will see countries which showed some Hartnell stories and then nothing until coming back around and showing the first two seasons of Tom Baker. Definitely in the US this was the height of fandom until probably the matt smith years, as Tom stories to this day get repeated on some stations across the States. That's how my mom got into who was PBS repeats in the 80s and 90s. The Baker/Hinchcliffe years were, and still are seen as, a “high”, many stories stand up well almost half a century later. TB was at the top of his game and a great ambassador for the show. With the transition to colour in the 70s it’s not surprising he was a big hit around the world. One thing that’s puzzled me for some years is the missed opportunities wrt the Pertwee seasons. When a station goes from b&w to colour they need material, and lots of it, to encourage people to upgrade their TVs. There’s a limit to what you can produce in-house, feature films are a quick win but you’re looking round for material. By the mid 70s both the US and UK had been making film series in colour for a decade so that’s a rich seam. Auntie had been making colour programmes since at least 1968 when BBC2 introduced it, so that’s things like “Civilisation”. DW, of course, had been in colour since 1970 and there were 128 colour Pertwee episodes. Why didn’t Enterprises sort out the clearances and offer these to stations going to colour, that would have been 128 half hour slots, five or seven nights per week, with a family action/adventure show. Answers on a postcard…. |
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Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2023 0:00:09 GMT
Keep in mind,when ian levine helped stop the purging in 1978, he was apx.25. A college age /young man. Dr who was only 15 years old at the time.. Since then, we are about 45 years later. As an older man, 10 years seems to fly As you get older three things happen. The first is that you start losing your memory. And I can’t remember the other two! |
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Post by George D on Aug 18, 2023 0:21:59 GMT
One thing that’s puzzled me for some years is the missed opportunities wrt the Pertwee seasons. When a station goes from b&w to colour they need material, and lots of it, to encourage people to upgrade their TVs. They did use them. Unfortunately it hurt troughtons survival rate. Many 1960s stations started at the beginning with hartnell. As they went to color, they went directly to pertwee and baker. In USA in the early to mid 70s time life syndicated a pertwee package. This is likely where many of the pertwee color off airs came from . However by late 70s.they switched to syndicating the Tom baker episodes with the narration. Dr who's peak in USA occurred early 80s with the PBS syndication which started with tom. after they went to davison.. when they went back to pertwee, regrettably many original were already destroyed. |
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Post by markperry on Aug 18, 2023 0:33:10 GMT
John Wall siad "When a station goes from b&w to colour they need material, and lots of it, to encourage people to upgrade their TVs. There’s a limit to what you can produce in-house, feature films are a quick win but you’re looking round for material. By the mid 70s both the US and UK had been making film series in colour for a decade so that’s a rich seam. Auntie had been making colour programmes since at least 1968 when BBC2 introduced it, so that’s things like “Civilisation”. DW, of course, had been in colour since 1970 and there were 128 colour Pertwee episodes. Why didn’t Enterprises sort out the clearances and offer these to stations going to colour, that would have been 128 half hour slots, five or seven nights per week, with a family action/adventure show. Answers on a postcard…." Well Australia, Hong Kong & Singapore were b&w until The Green Death. Season 11 Singapore threw in the towl, Australia & Hong Kong went to color though Oz nearly accepted it in b&w. The local Channel 7 had tested some color cameras (although you'll find on the DVD the images weren't keyed properly) alongside the b&ws to cover the Bathurst 1000 in October 74 so Australia must have been very close to fine-tuning color broadcasts. Heres another theory about Singapore broadwcast.org/index.php/SingaporeWhy Singapore did not purchase Season Eleven or the Tom Baker series is more than likely on account of the fact that the early RTS colour transmissions could only support colour film rather than colour video tape, the format in which colour Doctor Who was supplied. Full colour conversion for both channels was planned for completion by the end of 1976 – so why was Doctor Who not picked up again after that year? |
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Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2023 9:49:14 GMT
I think some haven’t understood the point I was trying to make about the Pertwees.
When Sue Malden and Ian Levine started looking in c. 1978 a lot of Pertwees had gone, they weren’t being offered for sale. Many were recovered as, in various forms; PAL or NTSC VT or 16mm telerecordings, they were held by overseas broadcasters who either still had the rights to show them or hadn’t got round to destroying them.
Throughout the 70s and into the 80s broadcasters were converting to colour and needed colour material, and lots of it. Auntie had 128 25 minute episodes of family orientated action/adventure that could have helped these broadcasters “colour” their schedule, but they weren’t selling it.
Consider a broadcaster converting to colour. They could get 128 Pertwee episodes which they strip-show five nights per week. Six months later they start showing Baker.
But it never happened. Why did Enterprises fail to spot that opportunity?
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Post by George D on Aug 18, 2023 12:43:45 GMT
I'm not understanding your question.
My understanding is bbc viewed this as ephemeral and wanted to sell most modern series.
As was shared, some stations had color conversion during the pertwee era so continued where they left off.
Any station that converted later could get current colour material.
Usa got a colour pertwee package in early 70s, but once wiping occurred there was no longer a complete colour pertwee run, hence focus on baker package. That was when value of older shows was realized in late 70s.
The time period you are referring to(late 70s and 80s) a color pertwee run did not exist.
If they were able and interested in selling old tv, much would still exist.
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Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2023 13:58:20 GMT
I'm not understanding your question. My understanding is bbc viewed this as ephemeral and wanted to sell most modern series. As was shared, some stations had color conversion during the pertwee era so continued where they left off. Any station that converted later could get current colour material. Usa got a colour pertwee package in early 70s, but once wiping occurred there was no longer a complete colour pertwee run, hence focus on baker package. That was when value of older shows was realized in late 70s. The time period you are referring to(late 70s and 80s) a color pertwee run did not exist. If they were able and interested in selling old tv, much would still exist. Enterprises would sell anything that broadcasters would buy! DW was always made with overseas sales in mind, that’s why it was 25 minutes, it would fill a half hour slot with a commercial break. Yes, they would sell “current colour material” but the point is that there was clearly a market for lots of colour material at the broadcasters that were converting and this tended to be advertised before the event to encourage viewers to get new sets. We know that there “was no longer a complete colour Pertwee run”, but why wasn’t there? Was no one in Enterprises in the mid 70s looking at what was happening around the world and getting that lightbulb in the cloud moment that there were going to be lots of potential customers for lots of colour material? I can remember when TV used to start at about 4pm and finish about midnight. But that’s 8 hours per day, 56 hours per week. A scheduler has to fill that, preferably with as much colour material as possible. Auntie had been making things in colour since the late 60s so there was potentially a decent sized catalogue, and not just DW. It sadly looks like Enterprises missed a trick and I expect the gap was filled by Lew Grade and US film series. |
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Post by stevegerald on Aug 18, 2023 15:35:50 GMT
When Sue Malden and Ian Levine started looking in c. 1978 a lot of Pertwees had gone, they weren’t being offered for sale. Many were recovered as, in various forms; PAL or NTSC VT or 16mm telerecordings, they were held by overseas broadcasters who either still had the rights to show them or hadn’t got round to destroying them. Only two Pertwees were ever missing, Invasion of the Dinosaurs 1 and Death to the Daleks 1, the BBC had the entirety of seasons 7-10 as 16mm film recordings. |
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Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2023 15:38:07 GMT
When Sue Malden and Ian Levine started looking in c. 1978 a lot of Pertwees had gone, they weren’t being offered for sale. Many were recovered as, in various forms; PAL or NTSC VT or 16mm telerecordings, they were held by overseas broadcasters who either still had the rights to show them or hadn’t got round to destroying them. Only two Pertwees were ever missing, Invasion of the Dinosaurs 1 and Death to the Daleks 1, the BBC had the entirety of seasons 7-10 as 16mm film recordings. When you’re looking to sell to purchasers who are converting to colour, b&w telerecordings are as much use as a chocolate teapot! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2023 18:06:23 GMT
Only two Pertwees were ever missing, Invasion of the Dinosaurs 1 and Death to the Daleks 1, the BBC had the entirety of seasons 7-10 as 16mm film recordings. When you’re looking to sell to purchasers who are converting to colour, b&w telerecordings are as much use as a chocolate teapot! They have Chroma dots, which can allow the color to be restored. Sure the D3 Restoration, RSC method, or the Chroma Dot Color Recovery process won't be as good as the original PAL print, but it's close enough to the original as we will get. |
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Post by George D on Aug 18, 2023 18:10:17 GMT
When Sue Malden and Ian Levine started looking in c. 1978 a lot of Pertwees had gone, they weren’t being offered for sale. Many were recovered as, in various forms; PAL or NTSC VT or 16mm telerecordings, they were held by overseas broadcasters who either still had the rights to show them or hadn’t got round to destroying them. Only two Pertwees were ever missing, Invasion of the Dinosaurs 1 and Death to the Daleks 1, the BBC had the entirety of seasons 7-10 as 16mm film recordings. Fortunately film wiping didn't extend past season 6, and they didn't destroy all of 6. Keep in mind that usa converted to full color mid to late 60s. Bbc early 70s. Most of the world was behind that. As color is started in a country, most residents do not have color tv and there was a wealth of color material to choose from. If they wanted color dr who, they could choose tom.. very few stations would wow at two color dr who at once. |
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Post by John Wall on Aug 18, 2023 19:04:03 GMT
When you’re looking to sell to purchasers who are converting to colour, b&w telerecordings are as much use as a chocolate teapot! They have Chroma dots, which can allow the color to be restored. Sure the D3 Restoration, RSC method, or the Chroma Dot Color Recovery process won't be as good as the original PAL print, but it's close enough to the original as we will get. Er…..that wasn’t available fifty years ago…… |
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