Why didn't BBC Enterprises give their DW prints to the BFI?

[Deleted]

From around 1972 to 1978, BBC Enterprises disposed of much of their older material, including many episodes of Doctor Who. It wasn't until 1977 when they started giving episodes to the BFI. When the junkings ended in 1978, the BBC asked the BFI for it's prints back for archival. That's how The Dominators, The Krotons, and The War Games survived.



Instead of junking their old Doctor Who episodes, why didn't the BBC Enterprises give all of them to the BFI instead? After all, the BFI was massive and had more government funding.

[George D]

This is a good question.


Most of season 6 exists because it was donated to bfi.

Most of season 1 and 2 exists because they weren't destroyed yet.


I could guess but an expert answer would be better.

[John Wall]

Probably because they assumed they didn’t have anything unique.

[Richard Bignell]

Aug 17, 2023 1:02:38 GMT @angelamezquita said:

Instead of junking their old Doctor Who episodes, why didn't the BBC Enterprises give all of them to the BFI instead? After all, the BFI was massive and had more government funding.

Because neither the BBC were not permitted to make such donations and the BFI (and its previous guises as the NFA and NFATA) were not permitted to acquire material that way.

And bear in mind, The Dominators, The Krotons, and The War Games only ended up at the BFI through one person's actions who wasn't following the agreed protocols.

[anthonybartley]

Also the fact that nobody really had a VCR at home and there were only 3 channels to watch on TV.

People forget that film and television output was regarded as completely disposable at that point. Nobody envisioned a 'home video' market or today's hundreds of streaming channels showing all kinds of different content on-demand. Mostly because it didn't exist. I'm guessing that for most staff at the BBC back then, it was just rooms full of old material they didn't imagine would ever have a second life.

The mindset was completely different - and I suspect that's the main reason why nobody bothered.

Based on that alone, it's a miracle any of it survived.

[John Wall]

It’s important to note that, contrary to what some think, DW was a very small part of Enterprises’ business. If there had been a system where every unwanted print was sent to the BFI, NFA, etc all sorts of shows would be much better represented now. Someone would have drowned in film cans though!

[lousingh]

Serious question for those who were old enough to remember: when did it become apparent that Doctor Who had changed from just another show to an elevated status? Given the limitations and the perception of the series at the time, could anyone have justified taking up space saving every episode of what I imagine most adults viewed as a cheapo, melodramatic kids show? The only hint might have been the success of Star Trek after its cancellation because of the moon landing followed by its revival with the cartoons.

[Ralph Rose]

In 1977/78

The VCR was becoming more available to the general public.

Then Tom Baker's earlier stories were also doing the rounds in syndication, including the USA. Popularity was up.

The fact that Ian Levine was making inquiries about buying the stories probably didn't hurt either.

[John Wall]

Aug 17, 2023 18:57:38 GMT lousingh said:

Serious question for those who were old enough to remember: when did it become apparent that Doctor Who had changed from just another show to an elevated status? Given the limitations and the perception of the series at the time, could anyone have justified taking up space saving every episode of what I imagine most adults viewed as a cheapo, melodramatic kids show? The only hint might have been the success of Star Trek after its cancellation because of the moon landing followed by its revival with the cartoons.

What saved ST was syndication. They’d made enough episodes for the cable channels to be able to strip-show it, the same slot every night, where it found an audience. TAS followed and they were planning a reboot called something like Star Trek 2. This was well advanced when Star Wars arrived. Paramount realised they had their own sci-fi property and TMP was born, the rest is history.

I was around in the 70s which was when I became a regular DW viewer.

Probably the first thing for DW was the Radio Times Special for the tenth anniversary. A few years later was the Lively Arts “Whose Doctor Who”, the start of Dr Who Weekly and the formation of DWAS - the DW Appreciation Society. Some masochist will check all the dates but I was a member of DWAS in the very late 70s, and I went to my first aver event in late 1980. The Target novelisations also started in the 1970s, initially reprinting the three from the 60s.

I disagree with “cheapo, melodramatic kids show” - someone’s for a time loop! With DVD and BluRay I can look back at the 70s shows I enjoyed when young and it’s surprising how well many of them stand up. The colour reboot was crucial. A typical Pertwee season was 3 x 6 parts and 2 x 4 parts, for Baker it became 5 x 4 parts and 1 x 6 parts.

4 x 25 minutes is 100 minutes, which would be c.95 minutes without the credits and reprises - that was once about the length of a typical feature film. It’s not too difficult to make something reasonably fast paced for an hour and a half. To be fair though some of the Pertwee 6 parters could have “lost” an episode or, even, two!

There were only three channels at the time and DW could get 10m+ viewers but, as it’s still enjoyable, I’d argue it was deserved. ITV put things with much bigger budgets like UFO and Space 1999 up against DW - and Buck Rogers in the 25th Century! - but never really dented it. The ITV scheduling problems didn’t help.

It’s also important to note that DW wasn’t made by the Children’s Department, it was either Serials or Series - although shown at teatime. Clearly there were some dodgy effects and costumes - but ST TOS was far from immune from budgetary problems! Quite a lot did actually work, particularly in the Hinchcliffe era when the technology was maturing and effects were checked before they were used.

What we got, and can still appreciate, was a multilayered show that could work at several levels. Malcolm Hulke, for example, could write stories that were goodies vs baddies for the children but also contained a, prescient, message about pollution and the environment - a long time before things like climate change were talked about. Think of the Monster of Peladon, clearly commenting on the then industrial problems in the coal industry, but not ramming it down your throat. ST TOS also did that, commenting on the Cold War and other current issues.

In the 70s DW was a show going from its first to its second decade, but still growing in popularity. It had quite a few very good scripts and generally used its budget well. It’s well worth watching “Behind the Sofa” on the BluRay releases and see the generally appreciative comments on, say, Pertwee stories by people from later eras.

[sonnybh]

Aug 17, 2023 10:39:06 GMT anthonybartley said:

Also the fact that nobody really had a VCR at home and there were only 3 channels to watch on TV.

People forget that film and television output was regarded as completely disposable at that point. Nobody envisioned a 'home video' market or today's hundreds of streaming channels showing all kinds of different content on-demand. Mostly because it didn't exist. I'm guessing that for most staff at the BBC back then, it was just rooms full of old material they didn't imagine would ever have a second life.

The mindset was completely different - and I suspect that's the main reason why nobody bothered.

Based on that alone, it's a miracle any of it survived.

The BBC's early soaps were mostly disposed of if they were recorded in the first place, there isn't a full episode of United from what I remember.

[Jon Preddle]

Aug 17, 2023 18:57:38 GMT lousingh said:

Serious question for those who were old enough to remember: when did it become apparent that Doctor Who had changed from just another show to an elevated status? Given the limitations and the perception of the series at the time, could anyone have justified taking up space saving every episode of what I imagine most adults viewed as a cheapo, melodramatic kids show? The only hint might have been the success of Star Trek after its cancellation because of the moon landing followed by its revival with the cartoons.

There were long-running exhibitions in Blackpool and Longleat which started in the mid-70s. For the 20th anniversary, there was the mammoth Longleat event. So DW had certainly been seen in the BBC's eyes to be a "popular" series.

[John Wall]

Aug 17, 2023 20:56:14 GMT Jon Preddle said:

Aug 17, 2023 18:57:38 GMT lousingh said:

Serious question for those who were old enough to remember: when did it become apparent that Doctor Who had changed from just another show to an elevated status? Given the limitations and the perception of the series at the time, could anyone have justified taking up space saving every episode of what I imagine most adults viewed as a cheapo, melodramatic kids show? The only hint might have been the success of Star Trek after its cancellation because of the moon landing followed by its revival with the cartoons.

There were long-running exhibitions in Blackpool and Longleat which started in the mid-70s. For the 20th anniversary, there was the mammoth Longleat event. So DW had certainly been seen in the BBC's eyes to be a "popular" series.

I was at Longleat and saw both the exhibitions.

[John Wall]

Aug 17, 2023 20:51:17 GMT sonnybh said:

Aug 17, 2023 10:39:06 GMT anthonybartley said:

Also the fact that nobody really had a VCR at home and there were only 3 channels to watch on TV.

People forget that film and television output was regarded as completely disposable at that point. Nobody envisioned a 'home video' market or today's hundreds of streaming channels showing all kinds of different content on-demand. Mostly because it didn't exist. I'm guessing that for most staff at the BBC back then, it was just rooms full of old material they didn't imagine would ever have a second life.

The mindset was completely different - and I suspect that's the main reason why nobody bothered.

Based on that alone, it's a miracle any of it survived.

The BBC's early soaps were mostly disposed of if they were recorded in the first place, there isn't a full episode of United from what I remember.

Unless programmes were broadcast live they were recorded on 2” VT. It seems to have generally only been programmes that could be sold abroad that were telerecorded onto 16mm film - and this sometimes seems to have been done when the programme was broadcast. If United, or anything, wasn’t going to be sold abroad there wasn’t any point in making a telerecording. The VTs would have been kept for a little while and then wiped and reused.

[George D]

Aug 17, 2023 18:57:38 GMT lousingh said:

Serious question for those who were old enough to remember: when did it become apparent that Doctor Who had changed from just another show to an elevated status? Given the limitations and the perception of the series at the time, could anyone have justified taking up space saving every episode of what I imagine most adults viewed as a cheapo, melodramatic kids show? The only hint might have been the success of Star Trek after its cancellation because of the moon landing followed by its revival with the cartoons.

I'm not a uk resident, but my understanding was during the 1960s uk dr who was a weekly quality sf serial that boys liked in a world of 3-4 channels.

As time progresses, things that are quality productions. That we continue watch, gains more followers through generations. For example today many comics are sold to adults who started collecting as children.

Around the tom baker era, my recollection is that fandom started to appear and starting their influence.
During the 1970s ,Viewers like ian levine started to make connections with the bbc and started getting shows preserved. Two years earlier we would have more. 2 years later, less.But keep in mind that at that point, the life changing interest was with the young. To the adults it was just disposable tv til sue malden became to understand that this was important to the young.

Another thing to recall is up until the 1950s, the older generation outgrew children shows..

Now we have 60 years of this where most alive today have fond memories of the show. ( expect that i abhor nuwho)

But mid to late 70s. Is when i believe fandom erupted with dwas, dr who weekly( which was a children magazine) etc..

[michaelnorris]

Aug 17, 2023 18:57:38 GMT lousingh said:

Serious question for those who were old enough to remember: when did it become apparent that Doctor Who had changed from just another show to an elevated status? Given the limitations and the perception of the series at the time, could anyone have justified taking up space saving every episode of what I imagine most adults viewed as a cheapo, melodramatic kids show? The only hint might have been the success of Star Trek after its cancellation because of the moon landing followed by its revival with the cartoons.

Just from Searching around on places like broadwcast.com It would definitely appear to be the mid 70's. Tom was screened heavily all over the world, in fact you will see countries which showed some Hartnell stories and then nothing until coming back around and showing the first two seasons of Tom Baker. Definitely in the US this was the height of fandom until probably the matt smith years, as Tom stories to this day get repeated on some stations across the States. That's how my mom got into who was PBS repeats in the 80s and 90s.