The Independent - Lost Doctor Who episodes are ‘out there'

[John Green]

Given that there is apparently more than one missing-episode-haver, each of them is also wanting to see the missing episodes that other collectors have got. Life must be hell for them!


Mutually-Assured Denial!

[michaelnorris]

Aug 2, 2023 20:25:02 GMT jattree said:

This article mentions that the film collectors are refusing to share what they have which connects back to what Paul Vanezis wrote in regards to the recent Britbox rumours. There he posted that,


'The films I have seen are still with the collector and there is no chance anytime soon of them being handed over to anyone."


The question I would like to ask, especially to Paul is why? Why don't these collectors want to hand over them? Is is because they are after money or like the feeling of exclusivity of owning something no one else has or could it be they feel protective of them having ensured that they still exist? All of which are fair enough and I understand why they don't want to hand them over but it would be nice to just to know their rationale.

If it's money there are more than enough of us to crowd fund whatever their asking price is, assuming it isn't something ridiculous like the GDP of a Caribbean nation.

If it the second or third ideas, as long as they are in a protected and controlled environment and won't turn into vinegar then at least there is hope.

I could be wrong but if I remember correctly the BBC does not want to pay for these episodes to be returned. Which is fair because if they name a price it makes each acquisition harder, as I can bet if these collectors want money they would want more for THEIR episode than the previous one. 

As for why these collectors are reluctant has been addressed many times over on this forum, and you've touched a lot of it. I think also when Ominrumor happened some corners of the fandom got particularly vicious towards collectors and it soured some of them on wanting to return any Doctor Who. Remember that especially if these people saved the films from the skip in the 60s or 70s they've held onto them for half a century and probably don't mind continuing to do so. I doubt there's anything anyone can do to change the situation, outside of what people like Paul and Philip Morris already do building relationships. 


 

[jattree]

Aug 2, 2023 20:31:35 GMT michaelnorris said:

Aug 2, 2023 20:25:02 GMT jattree said:

This article mentions that the film collectors are refusing to share what they have which connects back to what Paul Vanezis wrote in regards to the recent Britbox rumours. There he posted that,


'The films I have seen are still with the collector and there is no chance anytime soon of them being handed over to anyone."


The question I would like to ask, especially to Paul is why? Why don't these collectors want to hand over them? Is is because they are after money or like the feeling of exclusivity of owning something no one else has or could it be they feel protective of them having ensured that they still exist? All of which are fair enough and I understand why they don't want to hand them over but it would be nice to just to know their rationale.

If it's money there are more than enough of us to crowd fund whatever their asking price is, assuming it isn't something ridiculous like the GDP of a Caribbean nation.

If it the second or third ideas, as long as they are in a protected and controlled environment and won't turn into vinegar then at least there is hope.

I could be wrong but if I remember correctly the BBC does not want to pay for these episodes to be returned. Which is fair because if they name a price it makes each acquisition harder, as I can bet if these collectors want money they would want more for THEIR episode than the previous one. 

As for why these collectors are reluctant has been addressed many times over on this forum, and you've touched a lot of it. I think also when Ominrumor happened some corners of the fandom got particularly vicious towards collectors and it soured some of them on wanting to return any Doctor Who. Remember that especially if these people saved the films from the skip in the 60s or 70s they've held onto them for half a century and probably don't mind continuing to do so. I doubt there's anything anyone can do to change the situation, outside of what people like Paul and Philip Morris already do building relationships. 


 

I'm kinda hoping Paul or even Philip, (who like myself is probably a long time lurker here) will tell us the reason their film collectors continue to keep their episodes rather than allow the BBC to copy them.

Would these film collectors be even aware of the viciousness of some during the whole ominrumour debacle because surely only those following Doctor Who online forums would have the slightest idea about this?

[jattree]

Aug 2, 2023 20:31:35 GMT michaelnorris said:

Aug 2, 2023 20:25:02 GMT jattree said:

This article mentions that the film collectors are refusing to share what they have which connects back to what Paul Vanezis wrote in regards to the recent Britbox rumours. There he posted that,


'The films I have seen are still with the collector and there is no chance anytime soon of them being handed over to anyone."


The question I would like to ask, especially to Paul is why? Why don't these collectors want to hand over them? Is is because they are after money or like the feeling of exclusivity of owning something no one else has or could it be they feel protective of them having ensured that they still exist? All of which are fair enough and I understand why they don't want to hand them over but it would be nice to just to know their rationale.

If it's money there are more than enough of us to crowd fund whatever their asking price is, assuming it isn't something ridiculous like the GDP of a Caribbean nation.

If it the second or third ideas, as long as they are in a protected and controlled environment and won't turn into vinegar then at least there is hope.

I could be wrong but if I remember correctly the BBC does not want to pay for these episodes to be returned. Which is fair because if they name a price it makes each acquisition harder, as I can bet if these collectors want money they would want more for THEIR episode than the previous one. 

As for why these collectors are reluctant has been addressed many times over on this forum, and you've touched a lot of it. I think also when Ominrumor happened some corners of the fandom got particularly vicious towards collectors and it soured some of them on wanting to return any Doctor Who. Remember that especially if these people saved the films from the skip in the 60s or 70s they've held onto them for half a century and probably don't mind continuing to do so. I doubt there's anything anyone can do to change the situation, outside of what people like Paul and Philip Morris already do building relationships. 


 

You're right about the BBC refusing to pay and that it is long established practice but in the real world everyone has a price and knowing that price means that the legions of us who care have the opportunity to contribute to such a price if necessary if it means getting some episodes back.

[John Wall]

See “City of Death”. There were multiple people who wanted to be the only one who owned the Mona Lisa.

[Sue Butcher]

Aug 2, 2023 23:30:08 GMT John Wall said:

See “City of Death”. There were multiple people who wanted to be the only one who owned the Mona Lisa.

Some collectors are like that, but it takes all kinds, and history needs them.

[Nicholas Fitzpatrick]

Aug 2, 2023 19:03:44 GMT anthonybartley said:

If you read it correctly, Chris Perry says exactly:

"“We know where there is missing Doctor Who out there, but the owners won’t return it at the moment,” Perry said."

That's the bit in quotation marks signifying his words.

'is' and 'it' refer to the singular. As in '1'

I don't understand how people here interpreted it as anything more than 1? (excluding the rather inflated title of the piece, but it's what Chris Perry says that we're paying attention to)

Anyway, it's 1 (unless Chris suddenly had a momentary lapse of grammar - which I suspect he didn't)

1

Just had a funny thought - what if  Philip Morris actually kept the 'elusive' WoF3 reel for himself, hoping to use it as bait to draw out other collectors and hopefully unearth more lost episodes. Of course, he could have also assumed an alias - so it could be that Chris Perry is in contact with Philip Morris and they've been sparring with each other, with Chris trying to coax it out of Philip during all these years (without knowing it's him)

Yeah, moving on...

There's missing Doctor Who put there could mean just one episode, more episodes, or perhaps another film clip.

If I was to say "There's Covid out there, there could be multiple cases.

The use of a singular form does not mean that the reference is necessarily to a single episode.

[nathangeorge]

If you've never treasured a collection of anything - stamps, Weston Super-Mare FC programs, rocks, film - then you'll never know how it feels. It's probably safe to say many people reading are Who fans and have a collection of Target books. some are more obsessive than others but imagine you've trawled Ebay and charity shops from Poole to Preston to Perth, you've done your calf muscles in bending down at car boot sales, antique fairs and jumble sales to rummage through a broken box of Mills & Boon. Over time you build a collection that sits proudly on your shelf. it doesn't just represent financial investment and time spent, it also represents success. Books successfully liberated from scabby boxes, dusty shelves and forgotten corners. It's a private and personal success, and yet for all that, you've got a collection that isn't unique, that you know must be replicated on the shelves of a few, maybe many hundreds of fans. but still..... Its yours. So imagine if one of those prized books goes missing. You don't just see it missing from the shelf, its absence isn't just something you notice - you feel it. Keenly. If it gets lost or stolen or remains missing, it can be a palpable feeling of loss, desperation, panic. That's the power material objects hold over us. And material objects arranged neatly in a line of pleasing pattern or symmetry have a stranglehold of sorts over some. The allure and pitfalls of building the collection are entwined, further knotted by each new acquisition. Then add normal, more common stuff to that; possessive tendencies, selfish impulses, social ostracisation, co-dependency and you get a fist locked in a death grip. The only way to end the cycle us to let go but in all liklihood you'd then be dealing with everything you'd normally associate with someone recovering from substance abuse.

it's a mistake, in my view, to underestimate the considerable attraction of a collection of anything. power often lies in accumulation, and thats another difficult one to unpack. its also a mistake to underestimate the motivations of individuals, they're hang-ups, fears and neurosis.

That's the long answer anyway. The short answer to why collectors continue to hoard; Bob Monkhouse.

[Richard Develyn]

That's all fine and I agree entirely as long as you're not causing any unhappiness.

When that happens, you have a counterpoint to consider - the pleasure that you are denying others. With these missing Doctor Who episodes, it is considerable pleasure to a considerable number of others.

How you strike that balance is up to you, of course, but, broadly speaking, if you are well disposed to people, I think you will choose to let the BBC borrow the episode(s) so that it can be made available to the rest of us. After all, you still own the episode, it's just that it's now also available to others to watch. And, you have the kudos, and gratitude and admiration of a load of Doctor Who fans whose lives you have brightened.

Richard

[John Wall]

Art treasures have been stolen for ages, most go into private collections and are never seen again.

[Richard Develyn]

Nazi gold, and all that. And people do terrible things well beyond hoarding missing episodes. The question in my mind is do you want to stand shoulder-to-shoulder (even in a small way) with those sorts of people, or with the people who try to make the world a better place.

[jattree]

I would love to know the reason why the collectors Paul and Philip have negotiated with are choosing not to allow the BBC to make a copy. It might be something totally different than what we have all outlined and at least in my case is not about about attacking them or condemning them, just trying to understand.

As discussed, perhaps the huge leaps in AI might make them think twice. Probably in about 10 years, maybe less AI will be able to recreate them using the telesnaps and existing footage.

[Pete Morris]

Aug 3, 2023 9:00:29 GMT John Wall said:

Art treasures have been stolen for ages, most go into private collections and are never seen again.

Cite?  That happens in movies and City of Death,  but real life?  Other than the Nazis, who did it openly.

From what I understand, many of them are ransomed back to their original owner.  In other cases, the thieves realize they can't sell the item, and destroy it.

[John Wall]

Aug 3, 2023 10:17:30 GMT Pete Morris said:

Aug 3, 2023 9:00:29 GMT John Wall said:

Art treasures have been stolen for ages, most go into private collections and are never seen again.

Cite?  That happens in movies and City of Death,  but real life?  Other than the Nazis, who did it openly.

From what I understand, many of them are ransomed back to their original owner.  In other cases, the thieves realize they can't sell the item, and destroy it.

Art is stolen worldwide on an almost industrial scale. Yes, some does make it back, sometimes after a payment, but there’s a lot still missing.

[Andrew Dunn]

I'm not sure these private collectors are going to be Doctor Who fans or indeed fans of any one genre of film or TV. I suspect they are a breed apart and enjoy a feeling of mild superiority knowing they have something no one else does, our hope that one day we will get to see cleaned up copies of missing episodes such as Marco Polo or The Smugglers or whatever is out there will elicit no emotion from them what so ever. It’s simply not a priority for them.

Another possibility is that at some point in the past one or more of these private collectors has actually approached the BBC on their own terms to discuss selling/giving or even lending subject film print back to them only for the BBC to ‘cock it up’ by making high-handed demands or ignoring the individuals wishes. I would think these individuals may be highly sensitive to anything that smells of criticism. This is something that can effect an older generation particularly those who are financially comfortable and don take kindly to any ‘chat-back’, hence PV stressing the need for discretion and maintaining good relationships.

As for crowd funding, personally I think that’s a dangerous president to set.

Andy