Fate of NTSC prints of early Pertwee episodes?

[Deleted]

So I was looking at the color state of Pertwee episodes on the missingepisodes.blogspot page and the Broadwcast site to see if any countries had bought any Color copies of Third Doctor episodes that currently survive as 16mm B/W episodes. I noticed, alongside other episodes that survive as NTSC, that Canada and the United States DID in fact buy NTSC prints of

• The Silurians
• The Ambassadors of Death
• Terror of the Autons
  
• The Mind of Evil
• The Daemons

and that that at late as February 1978, BBC Canada had all of them in their Archive (CKVU and TVOntario only loan the episodes from BBC Canada). Also, its worth to note that Canada would buy the episodes it and the US wanted to screen from the BBC and it would loan the US episodes it requested to air, even if Canada didn't air them. Therefore, Canada had all of these NTSC prints at some point. By the time Ian Levine and Sue Malden contacted BBC Canada in late 1978/early 1979, the episodes listed above have disappeared, presumably junked.

Also, a reminder that the off air color copies of all of the episodes listed (except the Mind of Evil) had been recorded by Tom Lundie, a US friend of Ian Levine, who used a Betamax recorder and recorded Doctor Who serials off air from broadcasts in the United States in 1977, they year before the NTSC prints "disappeared".

While it's believed that these episodes were likely junked, it's also possible that someone could have taken them home with them. I hopeful that someone in Canada or the US still has the NTSC prints of those episodes somewhere in their storage. After all, the last NTSC prints to be returned were those of the serial "Inferno" in 1985. There's nothing wrong with the the Chroma-dot color recovery or the D3 color restoration (paring the 16mm prints with the off-air Color signal), but I think if we do find the missing NTSC prints of the episodes listed above, it can get a cleaner/better result than the surviving 16mm prints. After all, the other Pertwee episodes that survive in NTSC had been RSC'd back to PAL by the Doctor Who Restoration Team (with some detail from the 16mm added on for the Blu-Ray release). I'm hopeful that someone could return those NTSC prints back to the BBC, so we can get the Pertwee episodes as close to their lost PAL prints as possible.

[andyparting]

Silurians, Ambassadors, and Terror also shown in Japan in colour - fate of the NTSC tapes not known.

[John Wall]

Apr 19, 2023 23:31:56 GMT @angelamezquita said:

So I was looking at the color state of Pertwee episodes on the missingepisodes.blogspot page and the Broadwcast site to see if any countries had bought any Color copies of Third Doctor episodes that currently survive as 16mm B/W episodes. I noticed, alongside other episodes that survive as NTSC, that Canada and the United States DID in fact buy NTSC prints of

• The Silurians
• The Ambassadors of Death
• Terror of the Autons
  
• The Mind of Evil
• The Daemons

and that that at late as February 1978, BBC Canada had all of them in their Archive (CKVU and TVOntario only loan the episodes from BBC Canada). Also, its worth to note that Canada would buy the episodes it and the US wanted to screen from the BBC and it would loan the US episodes it requested to air, even if Canada didn't air them. Therefore, Canada had all of these NTSC prints at some point. By the time Ian Levine and Sue Malden contacted BBC Canada in late 1978/early 1979, the episodes listed above have disappeared, presumably junked.

Also, a reminder that the off air color copies of all of the episodes listed (except the Mind of Evil) had been recorded by Tom Lundie, a US friend of Ian Levine, who used a Betamax recorder and recorded Doctor Who serials off air from broadcasts in the United States in 1977, they year before the NTSC prints "disappeared".

While it's believed that these episodes were likely junked, it's also possible that someone could have taken them home with them. I hopeful that someone in Canada or the US still has the NTSC prints of those episodes somewhere in their storage. After all, the last NTSC prints to be returned were those of the serial "Inferno" in 1985. There's nothing wrong with the the Chroma-dot color recovery or the D3 color restoration (paring the 16mm prints with the off-air Color signal), but I think if we do find the missing NTSC prints of the episodes listed above, it can get a cleaner/better result than the surviving 16mm prints. After all, the other Pertwee episodes that survive in NTSC had been RSC'd back to PAL by the Doctor Who Restoration Team (with some detail from the 16mm added on for the Blu-Ray release). I'm hopeful that someone could return those NTSC prints back to the BBC, so we can get the Pertwee episodes as close to their lost PAL prints as possible.

There’s a bit of a terminology issue here, there were no “NTSC prints”, the broadcasters were supplied with 2” Quad video tapes which would have been useless to a North American “light fingered Larry”.

[Deleted]

Apr 20, 2023 14:03:10 GMT John Wall said:

Apr 19, 2023 23:31:56 GMT @angelamezquita said:

So I was looking at the color state of Pertwee episodes on the missingepisodes.blogspot page and the Broadwcast site to see if any countries had bought any Color copies of Third Doctor episodes that currently survive as 16mm B/W episodes. I noticed, alongside other episodes that survive as NTSC, that Canada and the United States DID in fact buy NTSC prints of

• The Silurians
• The Ambassadors of Death
• Terror of the Autons
  
• The Mind of Evil
• The Daemons

and that that at late as February 1978, BBC Canada had all of them in their Archive (CKVU and TVOntario only loan the episodes from BBC Canada). Also, its worth to note that Canada would buy the episodes it and the US wanted to screen from the BBC and it would loan the US episodes it requested to air, even if Canada didn't air them. Therefore, Canada had all of these NTSC prints at some point. By the time Ian Levine and Sue Malden contacted BBC Canada in late 1978/early 1979, the episodes listed above have disappeared, presumably junked.

Also, a reminder that the off air color copies of all of the episodes listed (except the Mind of Evil) had been recorded by Tom Lundie, a US friend of Ian Levine, who used a Betamax recorder and recorded Doctor Who serials off air from broadcasts in the United States in 1977, they year before the NTSC prints "disappeared".

While it's believed that these episodes were likely junked, it's also possible that someone could have taken them home with them. I hopeful that someone in Canada or the US still has the NTSC prints of those episodes somewhere in their storage. After all, the last NTSC prints to be returned were those of the serial "Inferno" in 1985. There's nothing wrong with the the Chroma-dot color recovery or the D3 color restoration (paring the 16mm prints with the off-air Color signal), but I think if we do find the missing NTSC prints of the episodes listed above, it can get a cleaner/better result than the surviving 16mm prints. After all, the other Pertwee episodes that survive in NTSC had been RSC'd back to PAL by the Doctor Who Restoration Team (with some detail from the 16mm added on for the Blu-Ray release). I'm hopeful that someone could return those NTSC prints back to the BBC, so we can get the Pertwee episodes as close to their lost PAL prints as possible.

There’s a bit of a terminology issue here, there were no “NTSC prints”, the broadcasters were supplied with 2” Quad video tapes which would have been useless to a North American “light fingered Larry”.

Yes, but the North American quad prints were recorded with the NTSC system. The UK prints were originally recorded in PAL, that's why the Standards Conversation exist, which is also why we have the RSC method. You can't play a PAL tape on a NTSC device and vice versa.

[Richard Bignell]

Apr 20, 2023 14:38:38 GMT @angelamezquita said:

Apr 20, 2023 14:03:10 GMT John Wall said:

There’s a bit of a terminology issue here, there were no “NTSC prints”, the broadcasters were supplied with 2” Quad video tapes which would have been useless to a North American “light fingered Larry”.

Yes, but the North American quad prints were recorded with the NTSC system. The UK prints were originally recorded in PAL, that's why the Standards Conversation exist, which is also why we have the RSC method. You can't play a PAL tape on a NTSC device and vice versa.

John's point is that the term "print" only applies to film, not videotape.

[G D Peck]

I’ve often wondered if a random NTSC Pertwee episode or story could still be sitting in storage at some PBS station somewhere. I know it’s unlikely after all this time, but have all those PBS stations been checked? Not only for Doctor Who but other BBC material.

[lousingh]

Apr 20, 2023 22:08:53 GMT G D Peck said:

I’ve often wondered if a random NTSC Pertwee episode or story could still be sitting in storage at some PBS station somewhere. I know it’s unlikely after all this time, but have all those PBS stations been checked? Not only for Doctor Who but other BBC material.

I have a friend who checked with every PBS and Canadian station who broadcast colour Pertwees. Vancouver was the only possibility. They said that they had found some and sent them to the BBC office in Toronto, but the Toronto office never got them.

I have a suspicion that the ultra-superior copy of "Terror of the Autons" floating around Canada was pilfered from that trove.

[John Wall]

All the easy places were checked long ago and PM has been back to some looking for audition prints, etc.

[andyparting]

Apr 20, 2023 23:16:17 GMT lousingh said:

Apr 20, 2023 22:08:53 GMT G D Peck said:

I’ve often wondered if a random NTSC Pertwee episode or story could still be sitting in storage at some PBS station somewhere. I know it’s unlikely after all this time, but have all those PBS stations been checked? Not only for Doctor Who but other BBC material.

I have a friend who checked with every PBS and Canadian station who broadcast colour Pertwees. Vancouver was the only possibility. They said that they had found some and sent them to the BBC office in Toronto, but the Toronto office never got them.

I have a suspicion that the ultra-superior copy of "Terror of the Autons" floating around Canada was pilfered from that trove.

- which thankfully found its way onto the Season 8 box-set 

[George D]

I didn't know they found a new print of autons.

Can anyone elaborate on it?

[andyparting]

Apr 21, 2023 14:34:47 GMT George D said:

I didn't know they found a new print of autons.

Can anyone elaborate on it?

Sorry, George that was a   - I was complimenting the Blu-Ray pic quality - v impressed.

[Deleted]

Sorry to bump this, but if they do find the missing NTSC tapes for the Pertwee episodes and they turn out to be of higher quality than the colorised 16mm prints, could the BBC recover them to use in home media and for tv broadcasting?

[John Wall]

Jun 9, 2023 19:04:46 GMT @angelamezquita said:

Sorry to bump this, but if they do find the missing NTSC tapes for the Pertwee episodes and they turn out to be of higher quality than the colorised 16mm prints, could the BBC recover them to use in home media and for tv broadcasting?

Possibly.

[lousingh]

Jun 9, 2023 19:04:46 GMT @angelamezquita said:

Sorry to bump this, but if they do find the missing NTSC tapes for the Pertwee episodes and they turn out to be of higher quality than the colorised 16mm prints, could the BBC recover them to use in home media and for tv broadcasting?

Assuming that I am correct about the source of the virtually pristine copy of "Terror of the Autons", then the answer is, "yes."

[Deleted]

So, rereading page 254 of Wiped: Doctor Who's Missing Episodes (Updated Edition), I found this quote from Ian Levine.

''There was a guy called Andrew Trentacosta at KCET in Los Angeles. He'd shown "The Dæmons' and then wiped the tapes, which had been re-used for their own news programmes and stuff, only weeks before I met him. Otherwise he would have given me the actual two-inch tapes of The Dæmons All they had left at KCET were colour U-MATICS. They didn't have any two-inch tapes at all; they had all gone, they had all been wiped. But they did have U-MATICS of "The Curse of Peladon, which he gave me, and I've actually still got them with his television station ident on them. They certainly transmitted one 90-minute tape of "The Curse of Peladon' originally a 90-minute omnibus kind of thing.''

Here, Ian confirmed that the NTSC American/Canadian prints of The Daemons and the Curse of Peladon were wiped for reuse by 1979. As a result, I think it's safe to say the NTSC prints of The Silurians, The Ambassadors of Death, Terror of the Autons, & The Mind of Evil were wiped or junked between 1978 and 1979. So close, yet so far.