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Post by rebeccajansen on Jan 25, 2022 1:00:42 GMT
'May' is an important word here. If it is happening that is information people have a right to know and be concerned about. Erasing or even editing history is always wrong. Something not being broadcast, or even easily available currently however, that is quite different and there are many reasons for it, not all evil nor inhuman. I don't know why but the quote function doesn't allow me to show just the part "Because the original tapes may get junked or become unplayable, with only the censored versions surviving. Far fetched? I don't think so. Companies are about making a profit and storage and transfers are a cost." So I guess editing is not in fashion here.
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Post by rebeccajansen on Jan 25, 2022 1:10:50 GMT
I've read the closed thread about radio programs not being aired today. I'm not sure if it was 'Much Binding in the Marsh' edited or dropped... but I would say they could, even should, air pretty much anything if they will give it it's historical context for present listeners, including that song by The Pogues. Perhaps it's where they find they can't that there might be a case for an actual ban; in other words a work is genuinely unexplainable/indefensible?
Generally name-calling and blaming large groups of people are not going to be too welcomed anyplace, not so much censored as recognized as aimlessly combative. Forums can turn into a real negative stew quite quickly, weaponizing things like the ignore, report and 'like' button.
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Post by garygraham on Jan 25, 2022 1:32:40 GMT
The people who compare what is happening today to religious fanaticism are correct in my opinion. After hearing a content warning these sort of people can't flip the off switch or change channel, or on a forum they can't block, because they know it will still be happening behind their back. The words are still being spoken.
The heretics must be silenced and prevented from speaking at all. Perhaps be taught a lesson by losing their job, having their home address published and family targeted. Or perhaps an intimidating visit by the police to check their thinking. Just today an elderly disabled woman in Newport has been arrested by police and had her house searched, apparently with a warrant, for putting up posters and stickers about what she regards as womens' rights and issues.
However new services and spaces are appearing which aren't controlled by these individuals: TalkingPicturesTV, GB News, Gettr...
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Post by Colin Anderton on Jan 25, 2022 12:43:32 GMT
My dear Rebecca, I'm not attempting to silence anyone. I just think you're taking life far too seriously. I followed the Beatles from very near the start of their recording career (early 1963), so I was there when these discs were released. People weren't so touchy over things then. I always liked the song "Run For Your Life", but I never gave much thought to the lyrics. John Lennon later said it was what he called a throwaway song, just written to complete the album. My message is simply: Don't take things so seriously. Oh, and in case you're wondering, I believed in women's equality long before it became fashionable around 1970. But that is something "real", and affects people's lives. A song is just a song. This Land is My Land. The Red Flag. The Horst Wessel song. The Times They Are A'Changin'. Yes We Have No Bananas. I have a feeling that while the West is fine-tuning its sensitivity towards intersectionality, governments in other parts of the globe are planning to impose on us eventually, those brutal systems which already make their own peoples' lives ones of misery. This doesn't seem to be a great concern to many. Perhaps the great epoch of slavery is yet to come, lying ahead rather than behind us? Oh John, if I am reading you correctly, you are so right!!! This "socially aware" nonsense is all part of something much bigger.... And no, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Lee Oswald shot President Kennedy, and we did go to the moon.
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Post by Colin Anderton on Jan 25, 2022 12:56:33 GMT
The people who compare what is happening today to religious fanaticism are correct in my opinion. After hearing a content warning these sort of people can't flip the off switch or change channel, or on a forum they can't block, because they know it will still be happening behind their back. The words are still being spoken. The heretics must be silenced and prevented from speaking at all. Perhaps be taught a lesson by losing their job, having their home address published and family targeted. Or perhaps an intimidating visit by the police to check their thinking. Just today an elderly disabled woman in Newport has been arrested by police and had her house searched, apparently with a warrant, for putting up posters and stickers about what she regards as womens' rights and issues. However new services and spaces are appearing which aren't controlled by these individuals: TalkingPicturesTV, GB News, Gettr... I totally agree, Gary. There are now far too many loud groups who are attempting to erase our freedoms. The problem has arisen over the last few decades because politicians have passed laws designed to appease them. Appeasement leads only to more demands; history should have taught us that.
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Post by John Green on Jan 25, 2022 13:29:37 GMT
This Land is My Land. The Red Flag. The Horst Wessel song. The Times They Are A'Changin'. Yes We Have No Bananas. I have a feeling that while the West is fine-tuning its sensitivity towards intersectionality, governments in other parts of the globe are planning to impose on us eventually, those brutal systems which already make their own peoples' lives ones of misery. This doesn't seem to be a great concern to many. Perhaps the great epoch of slavery is yet to come, lying ahead rather than behind us? Oh John, if I am reading you correctly, you are so right!!! This "socially aware" nonsense is all part of something much bigger.... And no, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. Lee Oswald shot President Kennedy, and we did go to the moon. There was a cartoon in the old Not! The Nine O'Clock News Special (so this is going back a bit) showing deployment of materiel by (a) the Warsaw Pact, and (b) Nato. (a) Had the usual regiments, heat-seeking missiles, tanks, etc. while (b) had quite a few Hot Tubs, Cycle Lanes, and adventure play-grounds. Morally, you couldn't fault the B ship... Not least because of the earth's rise in population, it's possible that more people are enslaved now that at any time in history. Yes, even bigger than the Atlantic Trade or the intra-African trade in men, women and children which preceded and outlived the Atlantic system. An article in the Guardian last month described Zanzibar's history over a millennium as a "cultural melting-pot". What a great song that was: All we need is a great big melting-pot...". And yet: "The slave trade in East Africa really took off from the 17th century. More and more merchants from Oman settled in Zanzibar. The island took on an even more important role in the international trade of goods due to the large trade at the Swahili coast and consequently also in the slave trade. This is how the largest slave market in East Africa was created. Only estimates, some of which vary widely, exist as to how many Africans were sold from East to North Africa. This is also due to the fact that many of the slaves perished. Scientific research concludes that about three out of four slaves died before they reached the market where they were to be sold. The causes were hunger, illness or exhaustion after long journeys. " Arab Muslims in North and East Africa sold captured Africans to the Middle East. There, they worked as field workers, teachers or harem guards, which is why the castration of male slaves was common practice. Muslims, on the other hand, including African Muslims, were not allowed to be enslaved, according to Islamic legal views." Given the vile regimes around the world, I see no reason to doubt that modern technology could make it possible for the majority of the world's population to become slaves in the not-too-distant future.Shall we ignore the possibility, give China, say, a free hand? No, it's nothing like a denial of the moon landings.
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Post by mattg on Jan 25, 2022 15:45:39 GMT
As the moderators don't like the discussion in the main forums about the BBC making cuts to old radio programmes, can we discuss it here instead? This "socially aware" madness is affecting nearly every aspect of people's lives today, and it needs to be challenged. Personally, I think editing these wonderful old shows to suit the sensitive little snowflakes of today is disgusting! Whilst censorship has become an increasingly pertinent issue these days I honestly don’t believe it’s worth trying to ‘discuss’ here Colin. For one thing these forums function arguably far better sans political squabbling. Naturally censorship shouldn’t be regarded as a primarily political issue but it is all the same and there’s nothing we can do to change that! Certainly past experience has shown that any attempt to initiate genuine debate in the interests of constructive discourse soon devolves into petty factional bickering. Unfortunately a minority seemingly cannot (or will not) comprehend the issue beyond the myopic confines of trite right vs left partisanship… In actuality though censorship far transcends the petty borders of party politics as it progressively curtails creative endeavour and artistic expression of which ultimately impacts us all, obviously. This will not end well. For anyone.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 25, 2022 16:48:52 GMT
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jan 25, 2022 19:37:37 GMT
Certainly past experience has shown that any attempt to initiate genuine debate in the interests of constructive discourse soon devolves into petty factional bickering. Unfortunately a minority seemingly cannot (or will not) comprehend the issue beyond the myopic confines of trite right vs left partisanship… This is quite true; it's why examples are rarely discussed on a case by case basis but almost always across existing lines. For example, the American conservative right is VERY keen to ban books from libraries (school or public, as long as they can be pressured) - anything that isn't white and heterosexual. www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jan/24/us-conservatives-campaign-books-ban-schoolsIt's 2020 now and that's FAR from the only report... Someone remarked earlier that there is a need to control and impose standards on others, which is true. But this tendency can be found on every side.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jan 25, 2022 19:52:59 GMT
I don't really see what that's got to do with anything, or even if we were discussing slavery, how that would be a proper argument.
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Post by John Wall on Jan 25, 2022 21:16:52 GMT
Some of us definitely believe this is an important subject but probably not on one of the main boards, and there is no need to toss abusive terms around if you can’t win the argument. With things like DW there have been many discussions about the recovery of censor clips from the antipodes to enable things like War Machines to be restored to very close to their original condition. Let’s go through a step by step process to see how close this sort of thing could actually get - and prepare to be surprised and shocked. Recently a statue on the facade of Broadcasting House was attacked by someone with a hammer and chisel because it had been carved by Eric Gill who’d abused his daughter when she was young. It came shortly after the acquittal of the ‘Colston four’. Subsequently there was a report of an organisation changing a typeface as it’d been designed by…..Eric Gill. That’s the state some of the corporate world is in, they’re scared of being accused of “celebrating” or “commemorating” a paedophile and want to avoid protests, social media pile-ons, etc. A typical modern accusation is of “racism” although it’s now so misused and abused as to be almost meaningless. Some of the cuts recently reported were because of “racism” - whether actual or perceived. The only show with its own board here is DW and it’s probably the highest profile wrt MEs. William Hartnell was born in 1908 and there are allegations to the effect that he didn’t much care for non-whites. There is information here en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Hartnell However, how different was he from others born in the same era? This isn’t the place to discuss Hartnell’s clearly complex character but if you wanted to make accusations of bigotry there is probably evidence available. The way things are nowadays - changing a typeface! - what do you do with old TV shows where the star could be accused of being a bigot? Putting two and two together there’s the recent report of BBC America - note that it’s America! - pulling the plug on funding for animations. Think of the recent animations and remember that before Galaxy 4 the only Hartnell had been Reign of Terror, and that was years and years ago. We’ve often discussed candidates for animations and the Crusade and Marco Polo are obvious to complete Seasons One and Two. So, were there discussions about future Hartnell animations and did someone in BBC America start googling and getting twitchy? In the current climate it’s not difficult to see ultra cautious types - remember the typeface! - getting cold feet about anything with William Hartnell. Be afraid, be very afraid,
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Post by T Morgan on Jan 25, 2022 21:40:32 GMT
'May' is an important word here. If it is happening that is information people have a right to know and be concerned about. Erasing or even editing history is always wrong. Something not being broadcast, or even easily available currently however, that is quite different and there are many reasons for it, not all evil nor inhuman. I don't know why but the quote function doesn't allow me to show just the part "Because the original tapes may get junked or become unplayable, with only the censored versions surviving. Far fetched? I don't think so. Companies are about making a profit and storage and transfers are a cost." So I guess editing is not in fashion here. I pretty much agree with you. I think I have used the example of Are You Being Served, in which the edited (cut) versions ended up on the UK Region 2 DVD releases for the first few series. If you want the full uncut versions you need the American Region 1 DVDs - a crying shame, in my view. If AYBS is on streaming services now, which versions are they using?
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Post by T Morgan on Jan 25, 2022 21:50:03 GMT
I've read the closed thread about radio programs not being aired today. I'm not sure if it was 'Much Binding in the Marsh' edited or dropped... but I would say they could, even should, air pretty much anything if they will give it it's historical context for present listeners, including that song by The Pogues. Perhaps it's where they find they can't that there might be a case for an actual ban; in other words a work is genuinely unexplainable/indefensible? Generally name-calling and blaming large groups of people are not going to be too welcomed anyplace, not so much censored as recognized as aimlessly combative. Forums can turn into a real negative stew quite quickly, weaponizing things like the ignore, report and 'like' button. I think the trouble is that there is an outrage factory at work today, who are not open-minded enough to think about context. The irony is that the BBC's audiences for vintage comedy on Radio 4 Extra are, I would think, the ones least likely to complain about "offensive" material being left in the programmes. The ones doing the complaining are the social media-savvy younger demographics. Repeat The Black and White Minstrel Show and you'd have a media storm on your hands before you can say "Swanee". The BBC would probably bow to pressure. They'd rather pretend such a show never happened - or just apologise for it. Many of these older shows would be deemed "problematic" for the right-on crowd at multiple levels. There is a difference though: these shows are actual BBC content, in their archives. Pop music like The Pogues' "Fairytale of New York" is another artist's work. This is music which is largely accessible for anyone, outside of radio broadcasts. The BBC have been "banning" pop records back to their earliest days in the 1930s. A local radio DJ got sacked a few years ago for playing "The Sun Has Got His Hat On", as it uses a term now considered offensive. I doubt the BBC will play Gary Glitter's records either. I agree with you that there's no need for name-calling. It should be possible to have a civilised discussion about this topic without resorting to that.
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Post by T Morgan on Jan 25, 2022 21:53:51 GMT
As the moderators don't like the discussion in the main forums about the BBC making cuts to old radio programmes, can we discuss it here instead? This "socially aware" madness is affecting nearly every aspect of people's lives today, and it needs to be challenged. Personally, I think editing these wonderful old shows to suit the sensitive little snowflakes of today is disgusting! Whilst censorship has become an increasingly pertinent issue these days I honestly don’t believe it’s worth trying to ‘discuss’ here Colin. For one thing these forums function arguably far better sans political squabbling. Naturally censorship shouldn’t be regarded as a primarily political issue but it is all the same and there’s nothing we can do to change that! Certainly past experience has shown that any attempt to initiate genuine debate in the interests of constructive discourse soon devolves into petty factional bickering. Unfortunately a minority seemingly cannot (or will not) comprehend the issue beyond the myopic confines of trite right vs left partisanship… In actuality though censorship far transcends the petty borders of party politics as it progressively curtails creative endeavour and artistic expression of which ultimately impacts us all, obviously. This will not end well. For anyone. Agreed, and it really doesn't help for certain people to continually make this a left v right issue... eg. "but you're siding with billionaire tax dodgers for whom you're purely voting fodder!" I noted that the thread was closed on the other forum about this subject. Not sure why the thread started by Ed Brown about the cuts, and the one about The Clitheroe Kid needed deleting entirely. Closing them would have been sufficient. I can understand why politics is best avoided on such a forum, and perhaps I should have posted the list of cuts in this forum, instead of the Missing Radio forum, as the subject may not be strictly linked to the forum's mission. However, it clearly is of interest to many here. I do think there is a danger that discussion of the BBC's cuts becomes a "death of Western civilisation" type discussion though. It is part of a wider societal trend, yes, but let's not get too overexcited.
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Post by rebeccajansen on Jan 25, 2022 22:08:04 GMT
One of those old dated comedies I really enjoyed/can still enjoy is I Didn't Know You Cared. I thought as my mother (in her 70s) has roots in that area she might enjoy it's humour (she was long familiar with Served, On The Buses and similar)... but after two episodes she never wanted to see it again, said the men were all very awful to the women in it. So a different generation, but even an older one one can take it entirely differently. She would've lived through that time more so than I have and to me it just seemed like all the characters were daft and eccentric, especially the men; they were too exaggerated for me to take seriously nor care that they might be blaming all women as part of their shtick, they were losers any way. My mother was genuinely offended however, but we can talk about it and I suppose someone else running across it might just feel alone in being targeted by the humour? She did enjoy Rising Damp, although I'm not as crazy about that one.
I think ideally there could be a right of reply sort of show going where people can add their views rather than sort of Harrison Bergeron (a Kurt Vonnegut story character) the entire population to any degree... setting the standards based on the most sensitive/damaged possible viewer. With license fees though I think the BBC has to sometimes say, to use the notorious Pogues song that; a gay person is paying their fee too, should they be subjected to the "cheap lousy f____" lyric today when she is not calling him a small piece of kindling wood?
Somewhere in the middle is usually the safer choice in a way, and yet that can get targeted from all the various further out there sides.
now about total freedom again... Weimar Germany had (allowed) every kind of newspaper politically and culturally you could imagine, but eventually there was only one. I think you do have to have some standards for the shared public airwaves/bandwidth and the purporting to be informational press, and not just someone with resources could conceivably challenge legally long after the fact. We are relearning this after loosening up regulations either for stimulation or some fanciful ideal that looked good and proper on paper (whereas reality is very messy and apt to be taken in by altruistic people's liberators who are actually their jailers).
Sometimes it's good to keep things general and not specific ion these topic, other times a narrow specific example can be positive to look at... so many things are a double edged sword!
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