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Post by ashleywood on Dec 19, 2016 12:51:08 GMT
Ritchie Unterberger quotes a 1991 Record Collector interview with Mike Smith.
Q: There was a story that a session drummer was used on the Five’s records.
Smith: I don’t wish to speak about that.
Q: Dave Clark always got a credit on your songs. Would you like to elaborate?
Smith: I don’t wish to speak about that either.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 19, 2016 13:15:22 GMT
I've heard all sorts of rumours about who played on what, and who actually wrote what re The DC5...!
I expect DC did use session drummers, but probably if he was busy elsewhere in the recording booth etc - live he certainly COULD play and in that very distinctive drumming style that Berry Gordy was influenced by on his Tamla Motown records - note The Supremes covered DC5 songs on their albums
I believe Mike, Lenny and Denis would all have played and certainly they sang - the vocal harmonies are Mike and Lenny led and they actually duet alot - even on 'Bits and Pieces' Lenny is co-singing much of it with Mike
I have read Clark took a songwriting credit on everything whatever or whoever wrote it...
which ties in with Mike's lack of clarity perhaps ?
I think each of the other four were probably 'wiser' to not say anything truth be told - hence they never did or have...
but it's a shame as a fascinating story must be in there re the music itself and the albums, EPs, 'B' sides, and the famous hits etc, we know so very little about their songwriting, their arrangements etc, all we ever hear is what an incredible guy DC was etc...
- I read a 'name' music author once attempted to do a book on The DC5 but had to give up on the project !
whatever, we DO know that The Beatles at least respected DC and his group, they never slagged off The DC5 and recognised Clark's ability as a manager in a very cut throat harsh business world - look at the complete disaster their own Apple became later !
only Brian Wilson in the USA was also self producing his band in 1963 - and Brian cracked up by 1966 ! so Clark's achievements are pretty impressive....except for his apparently massive ego and power to control which effectively ruins any proper re-appraisal of The DC5 and any proper re-issue of the back catalogue
a shame, they made some howlers like the dreadful 'Tabatha Twitchit'...but also some great records such as 'Maze of Love', 'Concentration Baby', 'Inside And Out', 'Good Love is Hard To Find', 'Return My Love', 'Who Do You Think You're Talking To ?', 'Got To Have A Reason', ' 'Rub it In', 'Draggin' The Line'...even a cover of Neil Young's 'Southern Man'(credited to DC5 if probably Clarke, Smith and Friends)
their absence from the UK in 1966 saw two of their very best singles flop completely in the UK minus any promotion - 'Nineteen Days' and 'Try Too Hard' - but 'Over and Over' was a smash USA hit during that period.
tracks like their powering instrumental cover of 'Rumble', their covers of 'On Broadway', 'Raining in My Heart', the unexpected subtle mood music instrumentals; 'Theme Without A Name', 'When I Am Alone', and strong originals such as 'Mighty Good Loving', 'I Need Love' and 'Wild Weekend' were all excellent sixties pop songs and material such as that plus many classic pop hits, should be on which The DC5 legacy stands - not hideous docus full of fawning over-praise to one guy
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Post by John Green on Dec 19, 2016 16:07:38 GMT
The irony in all this is there's probably a good warts and all doc that could be made in this about this band and the management/ Band thing That's 'wart',singular! |
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Post by ashleywood on Dec 19, 2016 17:04:49 GMT
I've heard all sorts of rumours about who played on what, and who actually wrote what re The DC5...! I expect DC did use session drummers, but probably if he was busy elsewhere in the recording booth etc - live he certainly COULD play and in that very distinctive drumming style that Berry Gordy was influenced by on his Tamla Motown records - note The Supremes covered DC5 songs on their albums I believe Mike, Lenny and Denis would all have played and certainly they sang - the vocal harmonies are Mike and Lenny led and they actually duet alot - even on 'Bits and Pieces' Lenny is co-singing much of it with Mike I have read Clark took a songwriting credit on everything whatever or whoever wrote it... which ties in with Mike's lack of clarity perhaps ? only Brian Wilson in the USA was also self producing his band in 1963 - and Brian cracked up by 1966 ! so Clark's achievements are pretty impressive....except for his apparently massive ego and power to control which effectively ruins any proper re-appraisal of The DC5 and any proper re-issue of the back catalogue I'm really not sure who played on the records but by and large as far as I'm aware the guys in the band did, though possibly (?) with occasional help from the usual session people which is no big deal. I really don't understand DC's reluctance to acknowledge Bobby Graham's contribution. I think I read somewhere that DC did drum on some tracks. He certainly was ok for live shows for several years, maybe not a Ringo or a Charlie but if he'd been complete crap the band would never have got anywhere on the live circuit in the first place. If your drummer's crap you're basically doomed before you've even counted in. Adrian Kerridge or Graham once said that during a session DC went on the talkback and told Graham, Bobby keep it simple, I'm gonna have to play this in a few weeks which I thought was very funny and self-deprecating on DC's part. Yes I just used DC and self-deprecating in the same sentence. He has nothing to lose by coming clean and a thorough and honest approach to the band's back catalogue could yet restore some of their faded glory but I can't see that happening. I feel sorry for the other 4 guys. They obviously worked extremely hard for several years and then suddenly it's all over and if they were ever going to get royalties from playing on the records (  ?) that would've dried up with the unavailability of their catalogue. The terrible misfortune that befell Mike Smith could have been helped a bit with any songwriting/performing royalties. It does appear that some kind of gagging order is in play too. The lack of them in the documentary was basically shocking. I don't think Kerridge got mentioned either and he was massively important to their sound just as George Martin, Normal Smith and Geoff Emerick et al. were for the Fab4. Their surviving BBC session is a bit of a 'mare without Kerridge handling the controls. The BBC engineers struggled though at least one of the tracks (Raining In My Heart) is downright awful all round and couldn't be saved even if Jesus or Malcolm Addy had been at the soundboard. What is of concern is what will happen to the tapes and those for RSG when he dies. It would be a big shame if they were all dumpstered but I can't imagine anyone putting up the kind of cash he's likely to demand - this was the sticking point with various cd reissue proposals by labels like Rhino apparently. Rhino were extremely keen to do a reissue project for the DC5 but deemed DC's demands to be completely unrealistic. It would be interesting to know what he intends to do with his audio/video tape archive. Though he is not thought to have much more RSG than was shown on Channel 4, it's still a culturally important slice of 60's pop tv and really should be available for us to purchase fully restored. (Comparing him in any way to Brian Wilson is way off the mark imo.) |
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Post by Stephen John Connett on Dec 19, 2016 18:38:09 GMT
Thanks Ashley and Patrick for some great contributions. These are just the sort of contributions that would have made a great documentary on this band rather than what we have been presented with. Imagine Ringo held the rights to The Beatles catalogue and put his name above Lennon and McCartney in the credits and you get some idea of the ludicrous nature of the DC5 thing. In a newspaper article about them ( www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandpopfeatures/11401510/Dave-Clark-Five-Bigger-than-Beatles.html ) he makes some telling remarks like on this passage effectively employed his fellow members, but he insists he "looked after" them well. "We never had one legal letter between us," he says. |
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 19, 2016 19:51:42 GMT
I don't compare DC to Brian Wilson as an artist or songwriter BUT as a self sufficient studio producer DC WAS quite unique
- DC enjoyed even more freedom at Lansdowne during 1963-64 than Brian had at Capitol - Nick Venet produced 'Surfin USA' album and Brian only really took full control after that
- Brian's bossy Dad Murray Wilson was even sitting in early on 'telling Brian this, that, whatever....' - Brian turning his deaf ear to it all !
Capitol under promoted 'Pet Sounds' instead fiercly plugging their 'Best of Beach Boys' set in 1966, while Brian faced a flak from other Beach Boys like Mike Love over his 'new' music in a manner no one would have dared throw at DC....
DC never had his old man to contend with in the studio or re running the band etc, let alone slick suited Capitol record company execs - he was theoretically under engineer Adrian Kerridge 'supervision' - hence the 'Adrian Clark' credit early on - but in truth DC was THE Producer calling the shots
DC had enough clout to pull the DC5 catalogue off the market - something Brian Wilson could never do re The Beach Boys ....
Brian has even lost out to Mike Love since then, so DC was pretty much supreme in his position of power re The DC5 - which has proven to be a great shame in retrospect as their music has been effectively removed from public enjoyment, bar the hits compilations, for far too long....
Rick Huxley did once say that thanks to DC and the group he paid off the mortgage on his house quite quickly and his family had a holiday abroad every year...so it seems the guys were looked after by DC, maybe they deserved more but they seemed quite content to let DC lead them throughout - tho' his refusal to allow the back catalogue to be re-issued was unfair on the other four guys, especially considering Denis and Mike's later respective situations
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Post by ashleywood on Dec 19, 2016 20:57:44 GMT
Thanks Ashley and Patrick for some great contributions. These are just the sort of contributions that would have made a great documentary on this band rather than what we have been presented with. Imagine Ringo held the rights to The Beatles catalogue and put his name above Lennon and McCartney in the credits and you get some idea of the ludicrous nature of the DC5 thing. In a newspaper article about them ( www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandpopfeatures/11401510/Dave-Clark-Five-Bigger-than-Beatles.html ) he makes some telling remarks like on this passage effectively employed his fellow members, but he insists he "looked after" them well. "We never had one legal letter between us," he says.Stephen it seems more like if Ringo owned the rights and all the songwriting credits were in his name, J,P and G were never mentioned and Andy White drummed on everything post-Love Me Do ! "We never had one legal letter between us," apparently the DC4 are not allowed to put pen to paper without Dave's permission and it is a legal requirement that the letter is credited to him ! As for "bigger than The Beatles"....anyone who says that is probably just taller. I'm definitely bigger than The Beatles but then I'm about 6ft 1 |
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Post by Stephen John Connett on Dec 20, 2016 0:37:41 GMT
The best thing they did was the John Boorman directed feature film 'Catch us if you can' in 1965 which predicts the hippy movement, the zany antics of the Monkees (compare the Monkees TV title sequence and the beginning of the DC5 Film) and even the odd location Surrealism of The Prisoner. I presume it achieved this because this was the only thing DC5 did that had minimal input from DC himself
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Post by Peter Stirling on Dec 20, 2016 9:02:46 GMT
The best thing they did was the John Boorman directed feature film 'Catch us if you can' in 1965 which predicts the hippy movement, the zany antics of the Monkees (compare the Monkees TV title sequence and the beginning of the DC5 Film) and even the odd location Surrealism of The Prisoner. I presume it achieved this because this was the only thing DC5 did that had minimal input from DC himself Apparently The Monkees TV show was originally pitched with the DC5 as the cast, Dave Clark said no (presumably as it would have been out of his control) and decided to do his own thing with 'Hold on- It's the Dave Clark 5' which as we know turned out to be 'Hold on- Look at Me I'm Dave Clark' |
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Post by Stephen John Connett on Dec 20, 2016 12:16:30 GMT
I guess if The Beatles had followed the same path that DC followed for the DC5 then they would have still been doing variations of 'From Me To You' and 'Please please me' in the 1964-1970 era. So no Sgt pepper, white album, Revolver or Abbey Road...
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Post by Richard Marple on Dec 20, 2016 13:33:02 GMT
I guess if The Beatles had followed the same path that DC followed for the DC5 then they would have still been doing variations of 'From Me To You' and 'Please please me' in the 1964-1970 era. So no Sgt pepper, white album, Revolver or Abbey Road... Sounds like The Harry Enfield sketches where the Beatles never touched drugs & are still touring playing Merseybeat songs that were out of style by 1965. I know Stephen Stills auditioned for The Monkees but had issues with writing songs for them, I think he woul have had to sign the rights away. |
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Post by Stephen John Connett on Dec 20, 2016 13:46:28 GMT
I will give DC this though, the preservation and the quality of the image and sound on the clips of RSG on YouTube are amazing considering the age and technology used at the time
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Post by Patrick Coles on Dec 20, 2016 13:50:36 GMT
putting all the obligatory digs at DC to one side for a moment - and some people do seem very 'touchy' re the idea of anything by anyone being some sort of even vague potential threat to The Beatles 'crown' etc which I find curious (tho' remember there were many people around back in the sixties who didn't rate the fab four very highly)
- let's just take a look at the music of The DC5
seemingly dismissed by many as not progressing in any manner whatsoever in fact their music does have some surprising aspects
The production was always tight, and Mike Smith's keyboard work was spot on, Lenny Davidson's various guitar styles shine too - he plays Duane Eddy style ('When I Am Alone'), then rock style ('Inside and Out', 'Maze of Love') while the driving fuzz guitar on 'Good Love is Hard To Find' and 'Who Do You Think You're Talking To' is first rate, and his guitarwork on 'Nineteen Days' stands out
the abilities of Denis Payton - who duets with himself on sax/harmonica on the solo on 'Catch Us if You Can' - added much to their sound, while the vox organ/sax pairing with Davidson's often backup guitar created a much more powerful overall instrumental sound than the standard three guitars/drums line up of many 'beat boom' era bands
the manner of the use of echo in specific places on both vocals and instrumentation on numbers such as; 'I Know You', 'Glad All Over' and 'Anyway You Want it' was impressive and unusual on early sixties beat boom era pop group records,
the unexpected continual tempo 'gear shifts' on 'Everybody Knows (I Still Love You)' was quite ground breaking in 1965 too
their driving instrumentals like 'Move On', 'Ol Sol', were an often forgotten avenue of their music ranging from Rock & Roll to soul to mood music styles
their five part vocal harmonies were another often overlooked aspect, for such a 'brash' powering outfit the subtle harmonised singing on numbers such as; 'Whenever You're Around', 'Bernadette', 'Because', 'Can't You See That She's Mine', etc display a more reflective side to the group as did the unusual arrangements on numbers such as; 'Till The Right One Comes Along', 'Go On', 'Lost in His Dreams' etc
- their sursprising vocals only version of 'Georgia On My Mind' at the Royal Command Show at the London Palladium was a memorable performance by the five piece outfit that no sessionman could later try to claim for their own....
Mike Smith had a tremendous lead voice, as powerful if not even more so than many of his more esteemed sixties group contemporaries - a few famous names would struggle to try to outpower Smith's voice - while his deeper more restrained soulful range had a fine quality ('Away From All The Noises', 'Devoted To Me', 'I Still Love You', 'Play Me Around' etc) , Lenny Davidson also had a very underrated lead voice too, co-singing alot with Smith on the hits and stepping up to sing 'Everybody Knows' (no.2 in 1967), 'No One Can Break A Heart Like You' (1968) and most of 'Here Comes Summer' (1970) - where The DC5 displayed Beach Boy style vocal harmonies
the focus of their music always remained love songs and 'boy meets girl where the action is' etc - causing some to sneer and look down on them musically - tho' they never had the often absurd pretentions of some of the worst excesses of 'flower power' onwards or attemtping to lecture us on how to become more enlightened etc....
The DC5 first and foremost made commercial music to entertain the general public - it's so very easy to criticise them as dated and square (as you sit wearing your hippie kaftan ? - more than one heavy rocker wore a hairpiece too !)
they were by 1969 at the forefront of the Rock & Roll revival scoring two latter chart hits with R & R medleys and their call for unity in the hit cover of 'Everybody Get Together' was in keeping with the times as much as anyone else was
a proper restoration of the long forgotten DC5 album catalogue would at least provide evidence of their strengths as a group, and show that they did actually progress in their work with some really great musical and vocal performances
while umpteen more important bands might be able to claim this, that, whatever, the fact is in the sixties - and still in 1977 it appeared - The DC5 were much loved and massively popular with the general public both UK and USA (even more so than some of their now far more rated 'acceptable to like' contemporaries)
it's a shame the music of The DC5 is limited to just their famous hits in most people's minds now - good as those were - as some gems have been long overlooked
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Post by Stephen John Connett on Dec 20, 2016 14:18:45 GMT
The issue at heart of all this has nothing to do rivalry with Beatles or the DC5 musical abilities etc etc but the weird elephant in the room truth of the reality of the band's relationship with their manager/'leader' which is exemplified by the 'post truth' Documentary which started this thread in the first place and perpetuates a cultural lie about how this band operated and the suppression of any dissenting voice within or around the band. This is a fairy tale with a control freakery sound and vision mix. Happy Christmas  |
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Post by Chris Barratt on Dec 20, 2016 16:07:42 GMT
For someone who, credit where credit is due, at the very least recognised and orchestrated the talents of Mike, Lenny, Denis, Ron Ryan and, not least, Adrian Kerridge into an international phenomenon at a time when standards were rapidly on the rise - it's the posthumous hyperbole (something that was evident as far back as the 1977 '25 Thumping Great Hits' compilation) I find completely at odds with the (mostly superb) music. It's as if, having had a magic formula he then discarded every aspect of it. Presumably the money that came with the control he had made him forget to 'rock' - there was never any need to claim a 3 minute R&R medley is '6 hits', or witter on about "million sellers" when the music can do the talking. Dave doesn't come across as a great businessman nor as 'streetwise' now, he comes across as an oddbod who has lived in his own isolated parallel universe for 40-odd years.
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?) that would've dried up with the unavailability of their catalogue. The terrible misfortune that befell Mike Smith could have been helped a bit with any songwriting/performing royalties.
