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Post by Laurence Piper on Oct 10, 2003 12:54:31 GMT
Brian's point about access to archives is a valid one that comes up again and again with relation to vintage TV. No matter what we talk about here with great interest and affection, it still - in the end - comes down to "but when / how can we get to SEE it?!" It's a long-standing problem particularly relating to TV. Until such a time comes that on-line access to whole archives is possible (and the associated problem of finding enough storage space to accommodate the vast wealth of material out there is solved), TV buffs will still have to do without (as ever).
Things HAVE improved to a large degree with the coming of DVD and niche releases with much restoration work undertaken on them etc. However, there is SO MUCH material that is crying out to be seen again that there is no quick answer...
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Post by robertpedley on Oct 10, 2003 21:38:19 GMT
On the subject of ITV’s pre 1970 FA cup finals the answer is yes, but intermittent almost random.
The first was 1956 preceded at 2.30 by ‘Road to Wembley’ [first final since the intro of ITV I assume] 1958, 1959, 1961, 1963, 1965 and 1968. 1969 was the first of the up-tempo ‘challenge BBC’ finals and according to the late Brian Moore’s autobiography it ended in fisticuffs between LWT and BBC staff vying for player interviews! The veracity of this anecdote was confirmed by a note in the Times some weeks later saying that in future no such rancour would be allowed and that signing of exclusive interview contracts.
I response to the concern about access, I suppose the reason I bothered to find out what was shown at all was that I naively believed it would a] exist and b] be available at sometime.
To be honest the BBC archive must be in reasonable nick [albeit almost exclusively as TR until 1970-the earliest VT I’ve seen is the 1965 cup final] but the ITV version is a mystery and that is a pity as there is no doubt, when checking the listings, that by 1965 they were showing as many significant games as the BBC often as the sole transmitter.
Does anybody remember if ‘World of Soccer’ transmitted into the Granada and Midlands areas was inclined to show Midlands or Granada teams? I’ve heard of so few examples to judge. When did Granada start its exclusive show-was it autumn 1968 or 1969 as I think they took the now-Midlands ‘Star Soccer’ for that first year after the ITV shakeup.
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Post by litefoot on Oct 10, 2003 22:54:38 GMT
No, ITV also showed the FA Cup Final.
In fact, IIRC, the 1967-69 finals were actually shown on BBC-1, ITV *and* - for those able to watch it in colour - BBC-2. Wimbledon was possibly also simulcast on both BBC channels during this period as well.
Don't know about the survival rate of earlier finals, but the 1969 League Cup Final definitely exists.
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Post by Brian D not logged in on Oct 11, 2003 10:12:28 GMT
Brian's point about access to archives is a valid one that comes up again and again with relation to vintage TV. No matter what we talk about here with great interest and affection, it still - in the end - comes down to "but when / how can we get to SEE it?!" It's a long-standing problem particularly relating to TV. Until such a time comes that on-line access to whole archives is possible (and the associated problem of finding enough storage space to accommodate the vast wealth of material out there is solved), TV buffs will still have to do without (as ever). Things HAVE improved to a large degree with the coming of DVD and niche releases with much restoration work undertaken on them etc. However, there is SO MUCH material that is crying out to be seen again that there is no quick answer... And Laurence there's the nub of it - pending the great technological storage/retrieval revolution, we will always be passive viewers, at the mercy of somebody else's choice of what is marketable for DVD purposes! Talking of technological solutions, how about the brain tape recorder? I think in principle your brain holds every piece of info it has ever received, and therefore assuming you saw it at the time, The Tenth Planet or The Beatles on Frost or whatever is still there. Get hypnotised, get hooked up and bingo! (BTW I think I either saw this idea as a newspaper April Fool or a sci-fi short story. Can't claim it as my own!)
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Post by gary freeman on Oct 11, 2003 22:53:58 GMT
From what i can remember granadas coverage of regular sunday soccer started in 1969 and was called "football" (genius, pure genius!) our regions commentator was gerald sinstadt. ive got to say the coverage was pretty dire early on and i always wanted lwt's big match to be shown as it had much more gloss to it. i can remember the world cup coverage in1970 being halted by as strike but i cant remember if it was bbc or itv? i would welcome any memories of itvs 1966 world cup coverage as i believe this was the first world cup to be televised on itv. just going back to the previous thread regarding the brain remembering everything it has be shown and a playback facility being available. can anybody tell me when this will be available as i have lost my wallet in the house and cant for the life of me......?
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Post by robertpedley on Oct 14, 2003 5:47:17 GMT
Thanks for the info Gary re: Granada, as for the 1966 ITV WC coverage is that apart from Hugh Johns and Barry Davies who definitely called some matches, Gerry Loftus may have called some games as well. I’ve never seen any footage but the final exists of course and was shown on ‘ITV Sports classics’ at least in the mid 1990’s with a very fuzzy telerecorded picture. I also read once that for the final the BBC used 10 cameras’ and ITV only 7.
I believe that ITV’s ratings were poor compared to the BBC and this was said to be down [apart from the ads I assume] to their unwillingness to show matches live. They did show a few however often had evening highlights instead.
ITV were listed as showing the 1958 World cup match between Brazil and England from Gothenburg as well via Eurovison [as did the BBC].
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Post by gary freeman on Oct 14, 2003 8:59:52 GMT
several itv 66 world cup clips turned up om a vtr given away with the football mag.442 about 3-4 years ago. there was nothing obscure though, all the games were called by hugh johns. dont know if anybody remembers this but on the ball once showed a colour vtr of a game with barry davies commentating . I could be wrong but i think one of the teams was coventry city. i got the impression that the game was from 68-69 but what amazed me was that it was in colour!.
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Post by robertpedley on Oct 14, 2003 10:10:43 GMT
The colour aspect is interesting Gary! I've got BD as commenting on matches [possibly World of soccer] in a few matches in 68-69 and it would have had to have been no later if it's ITV as he joined BBC when they expanded their coverage in 69-70.
Matches I know he called include a EC match between MU and Anderlecht MU v Newcastle 9/68 Liverpool v WH Notts F v Spurs 4/69 Leeds V MU 1/69.
The BBC transmitted 1 match of the day on BBC2 that year Chelsea v MU 12/68 and clips survive in colour of that as do matches between Man C and Stoke and Leicester and Leeds both from 4/69. However I wonder if the latter 2 matches didn't have something to do with getting colour preview material for that seasons cup final?
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Post by gary freeman on Oct 14, 2003 22:44:57 GMT
robert, im just wondering were you are pulling in this marvelous football archive from ? are you a private collector?.
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Post by robert pedley on Oct 15, 2003 20:17:02 GMT
Well a retired collector of sorts Gary! Most of the clips were just on the plethora of BBC and the odd ITV video from the 1980's and 90's. I just worked out which game was which by using 'football textbooks'. So most of the things I quote really are only clips, what exists of the programmes as they went to air is certainly another matter.
I do buy the odd full game from collectors but they are often from European sources [Spanish/ German etc] with commentary to match. I often wonder if much from the UK in the 1960's [particularly ITV material] made it on to this circuit as it really doesn't seem so. I suppose that domestic football holds less interest for the wider range of collectors.
A correction as well the 12/68 BBC colour was Chelsea v Man City [not MU].
Robert
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2003 11:55:00 GMT
Going slightly off topic a web search has turned up the fact that the ATV Sport archive has resurfaced. It's now part of the ITV Sport collection and is being looked after by the LNN archive (London News Network) - although if ITN move to take over LNN it may not be there for long!
Check out lnn-tv.co.uk/archive
the home page says they've got material from the 50s, 60s and 70s unseen for thirty years.........
Phil
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Post by John Bourn on Nov 23, 2003 13:22:31 GMT
For more on this subject, visit my website at www.students.ncl.ac.uk/john.bourn/index.htmI am told that ITV's football archive is kept in good condition although getting access to it is a different matter! I also agree that ITV (unlike the BBC) make poor use of their vast football archive. One tape which may interest people is the just-released "Newcastle United - A Complete History", which I believe makes use of the Tyne Tees archive (I helped advise on which matches had been screened on TTT). Regards JOHN BOURN
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Post by Richard Fitzgerald on Nov 23, 2003 15:05:40 GMT
Anyone see the footage of Hungary's 6-3 hammering of England at Wembley, shown on Grandstand yesterday - looked like a BBC OB telerecording. Is this the earliest surviving match in their archive?
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Post by robert on Nov 24, 2003 6:53:17 GMT
Richard The November 1953 match versus Hungary is almost complete, missing about 5 minutes [including Moretensen’s goal] however the earliest I know of is the 1953 [2 May] FA cup final [Matthews et al], which is on commercial release and is available in full. It is possible that other matches survive from around this time as evening replays were advertised.
Clips from the 1954 and 1955 finals, the internationals against Wales [Nov 1954], West Germany [Dec 1954] and Scotland [Apr 1955] are also about.
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Post by Ed Stradling on Nov 24, 2003 17:34:28 GMT
You're right about most sell-thru videos being top-heavy with BBC highlights as opposed to ITV.
As a Liverpool fan, I'm sick to the back teeth of videos purporting to show highlights of, say, the 85/86 season which show only the few games which the BBC covered that year. ITV covered just as many but you seldom see those games.
When the ITV sport channels were on a couple of years ago, I caught some wonderful highlights of the 78/79 (or was it 79/80) European Cup games against Forest - stuff which never made it to any sell-thru videos I've seen, because they were covered by ITV.
I'm not sure how far back ITV's archive goes, but there is certainly a great deal of unearthed material in tehre.
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