|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 8, 2023 15:39:12 GMT
No, the only possibility would be for 16mm film prints smuggled in from Rhodesia to SA & then copied for distribution.
As discussed all this is all complete speculation. To reiterate there is no evidence that this happened & is only really worth considering because of the two countries having pariah status and a close relationship as a result during the 60’s & 70’s during UDI & apartheid.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 8, 2023 15:32:14 GMT
Well John is quite right in the sense that in SA that there is no proof of any missing material being copied to 16mm & rented out in pre TV days SA. However my friend in SA is adamant that he saw Fawlty Towers on film projector, it’s your call if you believe him or not. Now this was the first season in 1975 which is right on the cusp of TV starting in SA but if true was clearly a bootleg copy. There has also been speculation as to the amount of cooperation with archived TV between SA & Rhodesia. Don’t forget both countries were on the naughty step in the 60’s & 70’s and neither were adverse to breaking international rules. Now Rhodesia had a lot of early UK TV on 16mm I believe both BBC & ITV. Feel free to join the dots, no hint of any proof at all but interesting speculation non the less & could be a good area for future investigation if it hasn’t already. Fawlty Towers was a VT show, multicamera studio with filmed inserts mastered onto 2” VT. So, how do you get that onto 16mm? The 2” VT has to be taken out of the store and put onto a telerecording machine to transfer it to 16mm. All of that needs paperwork with cost codes/job numbers and a skilled operator for the machine. SA was isolated for a long time because of apartheid so I’m unsure when they were able to buy BBC shows. However, home video would have probably followed TV by a few years and, as I’ve said before, bootleg cassettes would have easily made it from the UK. There were flights to/from the UK and people in each country with family in the other. Consequently we can say, not on the balance of probabilities but beyond reasonable doubt that someone didn’t see Fawlty Towers on 16mm in SA, however it’s extremely likely that they saw it on a bootleg cassette. I wouldn’t disagree with John’s analysis here to be honest, but Hendry is adamant in his belief that it was seen on film so you pay your money & take your choice.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 8, 2023 13:56:20 GMT
So, basd off the comments of this thread,it seems possible that someone could have made off air copied of missing episodes and sold them to people, correct? Nope. Home video didn’t really come in early enough. Remember that SA didn’t get TV until 1976 and VCRs most probably arrived there several years later. Well John is quite right in the sense that in SA that there is no proof of any missing material being copied to 16mm & rented out in pre TV days SA. However my friend in SA is adamant that he saw Fawlty Towers on film projector, it’s your call if you believe him or not. Now this was the first season in 1975 which is right on the cusp of TV starting in SA but if true was clearly a bootleg copy. There has also been speculation as to the amount of cooperation with archived TV between SA & Rhodesia. Don’t forget both countries were on the naughty step in the 60’s & 70’s and neither were adverse to breaking international rules. Now Rhodesia had a lot of early UK TV on 16mm I believe both BBC & ITV. Feel free to join the dots, no hint of any proof at all but interesting speculation non the less & could be a good area for future investigation if it hasn’t already.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 8, 2023 6:32:14 GMT
Most rich elite households had film projectors and consequently there was a high level of demand for material. Trying to research this today is difficult as there is an understandable reluctance in modern SA to look back at this period. I was in discussion with a guy over there who was involved in the history of cinema in SA but he got quite agitated when pressed on the possibility of films surviving from the apartheid era rentals to the extent that he denied any film societies existed in modern SA. I have family over there but with the death of my parents some years ago we have lost touch with them completely. If I could find some way of making contact that might be a way forward but I’m not holding my breath.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 8, 2023 6:24:10 GMT
I did some reading (what little there is) online about the video and TV scene in South Africa during apartheid. My overriding feeling is that there really can't have been very much floating around. TVs were banned until 1976 and the ruling government seemed one step removed from the Nazi party. I could see people being jailed or worse for simply having anything that wasn't state approved. It certainly doesn't sound anything like a wild west of piracy, or even close. Actually a “Wild West of Piracy” is exactly how it has been described to me by multiple sources. The film shops got hold of UK tv amongst other stuff on film & hired it out to punters with film projectors. It was frowned upon by the government but as is often the case the white elite were watching the films in their homes & the cinema and as folks should realise rules are not for elites but everyone else, particularly in minority ruled countries like SA was & dictatorships.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 14:36:34 GMT
So, are people saying that off-air or pirated copies of missing episodes may exist out there in the wild? missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/8910/early-television-south-africaRather than go through it all again here’s the original South Africa thread. There’s no evidence from anyone unfortunately of any missing Who ending up in the pre tv film rental shops but my friend remembers watching UK TV on film both in independent cinemas and at home / friends houses, which does raise the question if any missing material was circulated this way.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 10:04:54 GMT
DW MEs aren’t found through belief. After years of following up rumours, etc I think it’s fair to say that not a single illicit broadcast has been substantiated. The reason is probably that Auntie paid actors, etc royalties whereas those involved in film series got a higher up front payment. Consequently if DW, or anything from the BBC, was broadcast in a country that hadn’t paid for it the actors union would be hammering on Auntie’s door and they’d then be chasing the broadcaster. That seems to have instilled discipline that made broadcasters look after prints. I don't think it's about rights and royalties. Even countries like Spain and Italy didn't give a damn about copyright (at all) until the very late 1980s. If someone in SA wanted to make illegal copies, that wouldn't have stopped them. And the idea of the BBC 'chasing up royalties' somewhere in SA seems crazy. All that effort for what? But what would have stopped them was the huge bank of machinery involved in making a "copy" of something back then. VT would have cost a fortune and been way out of any pirate's budget. Likewise, film? You would need a lab and processing costs - again, way, way, out of reach of the committed pirate. VHS? Of course that was possible but it came much later - and we're not talking about VHS. Copying anything back then would involve very, very, expensive machinery and the costs compared to the perceived returns/profit - it just doesn't make any sense. Nevertheless the pre TV film rental shops in SA are well known to have existed, this is not in any doubt.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 7:11:34 GMT
Of course you make a valid point here, and being a now retired engineer myself I have sympathy with where you a coming from, I completely get that you can’t wish something into existence. Unfortunately without that leap of faith it sometimes takes if you like we wouldn’t have Phil Morris’ returns for example so I think it pays to keep an open mind. All PM did was to apply the old adage “trust but verify”. He went to somewhere, Nigeria, where DW MEs were known to have ended up and physically checked whether they’d been destroyed. Agreed, but he wouldn’t have necessarily gone and verified if he applied a blanket “don’t trust” with his initial information. I think that we are pretty much on the same page really John it’s just about a few degrees of separation in our approach to reports & info.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 6:41:04 GMT
I’m not sure that I really agree with you on either point, in both cases you make logical and coherent arguments to explain away what Hendry and Neil recollect but, and it’s a big but, in both cases the individuals involved, who were after all there at the time, are clear that they remember things differently from the version of events you suggest. My feeling is that we should “trust” the individuals and their memories to be “right” unless concrete proof turns up that proves otherwise. Again that’s just my opinion and of course you are perfectly entitled to yours too, John. On the other hand I understand & agree that it’s really important to challenge these sort of recollections & memories to see how well they stand up. I’m an Engineer, I look at things and think logically. wrt SA titles were quoted which, thanks to Google, etc could be checked - and just didn’t add up. With programmes made on VT someone would have had to have made illicit telerecordings, etc for which they would have wanted a quantity of used, non-consecutively numbered fivers in a brown paper envelope. But the money would have been subsequently made down the line in SA. With film series the Americans were turning out prints like shelling peas - one of the few things we know about PM is that he found piles of prints of US film series! it’s worth noting just how unreliable memory can be. When an identity parade is held it’s often the villainous looking copper there to make up the numbers who’s picked out. Michael Parkinson recently passed away. I used to watch him in the 70s and 80s, immediately after Match of the Day. But there have been a lot of repeats/compilations so which guests did I see at the time and which later? I didn’t keep any sort of record so have no idea. Consider the cinema, which films did I first see there or on TV? Nowadays as the cinema is close, I can get a ticket for £4.99, and have the time I’ll go and see films that interest me - but it was different in the past. Unless someone has a contemporary record/diary the best option is to treat any memory with the utmost scepticism. Over the years I’ve been a sceptic here and I’d suggest that my record is good. The Omnirumour is now about a decade ago but, despite the hordes desperate to believe it, I challenged it on the basis of its logical inconsistencies - it’s delivered zero MEs. I’m quite happy to accept that Neil, et al saw something at school all those years ago, but how many kept a diary/journal at the time? “Dear Diary, today everything was rained off but we saw a DW story called The Macra Terror which I’d previously seen on TV”. I’d suggest it was zero. There are also problems with the dates. iirc a few weeks after this, alleged, showing MT was, iirc, sent back to the UK meaning that someone had to have “borrowed” it and then returned it in time for it to have been sent back to London. There’s another pile of unlikely circumstances in that! We shouldn’t “trust” what people say unless they can back it up with contemporary documentation. Of course you make a valid point here, and being a now retired engineer myself I have sympathy with where you a coming from, I completely get that you can’t wish something into existence. Unfortunately without that leap of faith it sometimes takes if you like we wouldn’t have Phil Morris’ returns for example so I think it pays to keep an open mind.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 7, 2023 6:29:12 GMT
Mmm, I’m not entirely convinced by explaining away The possible screening of The Savages as The Monster of Peladon either, but that’s just me. 🤣🤣🤣 Argue that with Jon Preddle, I think you’ll find that MoP had been shown at the time. You are probably right but I always try to be positive with these sort of reports when there is at least a small amount of logic supporting them🤞
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:48:19 GMT
As far as I’m aware, the only person on the forum who has attempted any investigation of this was me and I certainly haven’t discredited his recollections, although as I’ve been off the forum for 19 months I’m happy to be proved wrong on this. I've not said anything, but I've tried to dig out South African newspapers of that period, to see what might be in the classified, etc. But I've found nothing online to even search. Jon Preddle and his contacts have always been best at digging out obscure stuff like that. Any luck? Excellent stuff and thanks for trying. I would be really interested to hear if any progress has been made by anyone else.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:42:04 GMT
I received a verification email from them when I joined but they never got around to allowing me full publishing rights which meant that all my posts had to be checked by the mods before publication which was incredibly irritating.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:36:01 GMT
Of course you may well be right in all three cases John, in reality though we may never know for sure.
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:30:22 GMT
Mmm, I’m not entirely convinced by explaining away The possible screening of The Savages as The Monster of Peladon either, but that’s just me. 🤣🤣🤣
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Sept 6, 2023 20:27:32 GMT
It’s clear what happened in SA. Prints of film series, possibly UK as well as US, circulated before TV started. Consequently those around at the time “saw” TV programmes on 16mm. After TV started and, subsequently, VCRs became available they saw the programmes identified on this forum on either broadcast TV or bootleg cassette. There wasn’t a single UK programme identified that didn’t fit that explanation. 45+ years later the programmes seen after TV started were conflated with those seen on 16mm before it started. As to what Neil may, or may not, have seen that’s also best explained by a conflation/jumbling of memories and the recollection of the short filler immediately preceding DW is close to proof of that. He saw MT when TVNZ broadcast it and later saw something at school, a contemporary film featuring giant crabs has been identified. Are we really expected to believe that in addition to DW Neil again saw the same filler that preceded Episode 3 of MT that day at school? The others who, supposedly, saw MT were, again, remembering something from decades before, perhaps they saw something with giant crabs? It’s a bit like those supposed to have seen Savages but probably saw Monster of Peladon. I’m not sure that I really agree with you on either point, in both cases you make logical and coherent arguments to explain away what Hendry and Neil recollect but, and it’s a big but, in both cases the individuals involved, who were after all there at the time, are clear that they remember things differently from the version of events you suggest. My feeling is that we should “trust” the individuals and their memories to be “right” unless concrete proof turns up that proves otherwise. Again that’s just my opinion and of course you are perfectly entitled to yours too, John. On the other hand I understand & agree that it’s really important to challenge these sort of recollections & memories to see how well they stand up.
|
|