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Post by Richard Tipple on Mar 13, 2012 13:31:54 GMT
It'd cost a bomb to shoot 16mm with sound for 25 minutes... If they did it and could sell them for £150 or less per episode I'd be very interested. I'm always on the look out for Who prints, even dupes, I just prefer having them in my collection than DVD's! I'm talking about dupes. How much does it cost to duplicate a 25 minute 16mm b&w film ? You know what, I was probably approaching it all wrong. The truth is I don't know how much a dupe would cost the BBC. Transfering film to film is a whole different ball game which I'm really very niave about the cost of! I'm sure there are a few on here that'd be able to have a fairly informed guess! I was coming from the point of view of doing it myself. (Don't ask me why, I read your post and got excited about owning a library of WHO !! You'll have to forgive my eagerness)
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Post by Richard Tipple on Mar 13, 2012 13:37:39 GMT
I would conjecture that if either of the recently recovered film prints went up for auction now they would make 2x to 3x the amount that this one will make. Yeah... I think that sounds about right to me; especially bearing in mind the relatively small number of people that have seen TUM2, and the smaller number of people that have seen all o fthe G4 episode (only an extract was screened at MBW). There'd certainly be enough people who haven't yet seen it that would pay over the odds to get see it sooner rather than later to drive the price up. I guess if a person who has allowed the BBC to copy such a print is to make as much money from it as possible, the time to do so is the window in between when the episode is returned, and when it's either released on DVD or when illict copies have snuck out (which doesn't seem to have happened with these latest two returns). The closer to the return date, the better... I have stated in the past that I think sooner or later a missing episode will turn up on eBay; and certainly my estimate as to what I think it will go for may differ from others. It'll be interesting to see how high it goes, especially if it's one of the most sought episodes, and the attention the seller receives... Not just on the seller... It'd certainly put a lot of pressure on communities such as this. I could see a missing episode going for around the figure that's being mentioned - that's money I (and I'm sure many on here) couldn't afford on our own. Then imagine the episode is TP4 or Power1... I honestly think it'd go for a jaw dropping amount - we'd have to hope and pray the winner does the right thing and returns the print. Perhaps a fund that'd reimburse the winning auctions cost would have to be debated. It'd certainly be a mixed blessing if a missing episode did find its way onto the auction market.
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Post by Ash Stewart on Mar 13, 2012 13:47:01 GMT
A very quick google search suggests it would cost something of the order of $10 a minute for 16mm duplication, albeit from a negative; if there's not a negative it would presumably be double, as you'd have to strike a negative, and then print a positive from that.
(This is, of course, assuming I'm understanding this correctly; if I'm not, I'm sure someone will soon correct me!)
So, circa $250 an episode just to make a dupe. About £165 according to current exchange rates...
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Post by Ash Stewart on Mar 13, 2012 13:57:56 GMT
Not just on the seller... It'd certainly put a lot of pressure on communities such as this. I could see a missing episode going for around the figure that's being mentioned - that's money I (and I'm sure many on here) couldn't afford on our own. Then imagine the episode is TP4 or Power1... I honestly think it'd go for a jaw dropping amount - we'd have to hope and pray the winner does the right thing and returns the print. Perhaps a fund that'd reimburse the winning auctions cost would have to be debated. I'm going to nail my colours to the mast here, and say that I reckon TP4, Power1, or DMP7 could easily reach £25,000. Lesser ones like the Space Pirates easily £5,000; with the rest somewhere between. As for a fund; that is something which has been discussed in length in the past on Outpost Gallifrey. Back then I even entertained the notion of setting such a fund up myself, but after spending quite some time looking at the logistics of it, I couldn't come up with a satisfactory way to organise it as it's a minefield from a legal perspective; you have to ensure everyone knows *exactly* what they are signing up to, and be very precise about what happens with the money collected, even down to *when* it's collected. I don't think it's an impossibility to set up such a fund (and a couple of people were willing to pledge 4 figure sums to it, to give you an idea of the scale that was discussed) but it is difficult. There were two schools of thought as to when the money was to be collected, as I recall; 1 - have a rolling collection, taking money all the time so that a large fund was getting bigger all the time. 2 - only taking money once a verified missing episode was listed on eBay (or elsewhere). There were plusses and minuses to both, but I certainly leant towards the latter option. I'd like to be able to go back and see what was said; but being OG (rather than GB), that's all locked away in the past now, and can't be seen on the internet at all.
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Post by Steven Sigel on Mar 13, 2012 14:18:00 GMT
AFAIK, this is the absolute highest price any Dr. Who print has ever sold for (at least in public). The previous highest was $US 1250 for "The Lion" shortly after it was found. (This was the resale on ebay after it went for $750 in an auction house auction in NZ).
I think you are overestimating what missing episodes would sell for, Ash, but who knows. I also think that the BBC would take legal action against the public sale of a missing episode unless it was first loaned back to them to make a copy.
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Post by Ash Stewart on Mar 13, 2012 14:31:49 GMT
I think only a handful would go for that high amount, but I don't think it's an impossible amount for such episodes to reach; I know there's no real precedent for it, and my guesses are purely based on DW fans and their desire for the show.
Would the BBC take legal action in such a situation, though? There have been other missing episodes of TV shows, admittedly less high profile, on eBay in the past and no action was taken then. I'd thought their standpoint was that as long as the current owner of the print obtained them by legal means that the print is theirs to do with as they wish. And surely that principle should apply whether it's an obscure show no-one remembers, or something high profile such as DW.
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Post by Steven Sigel on Mar 13, 2012 14:35:31 GMT
Doctor Who is a different story from most other missing shows in that it has commercial value to them, so I think they would take action to try to get it back if the owner refused to cooperate. That is not to say that they would necessarily win, but I think they would try.
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Post by Ash Stewart on Mar 13, 2012 14:52:31 GMT
That is very true; most stuff that's returned never even gets shown on the telly, let alone released on DVD. I guess the closest example of a missing show with a decent profile that's was sold on for money (and subsequently shown on the telly and released on DVD) would be the episode of The Likely Lads that turned up a few years back. Although, that was a private sale rather than eBay, wasn't it?
Can't think of anything else that ticks all three boxes...
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Post by Steven Sigel on Mar 13, 2012 15:14:49 GMT
It seems to me that the first rule of trying to acquire potentially missing material on ebay should be don't talk about it in public until after you've won it (or know that someone official is going to win it). Publicizing it is going to make every wannabe episode hunter go after it and serve to do nothing but run the price up... Great for the seller of course....
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Post by Richard Tipple on Mar 13, 2012 15:15:38 GMT
AFAIK, this is the absolute highest price any Dr. Who print has ever sold for (at least in public). Any idea why this is the case? I was very involved in this current auction and was happy to go to £750 - simply because this episode is a personal favourite. I've been well outbid so am walking away now. I'm always on the look out for prints/dupes if anyone is selling!
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Richard Develyn
Member
Living in hope that more missing episodes will come back to us.
Posts: 574
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Post by Richard Develyn on Mar 13, 2012 15:49:55 GMT
If it is possible to guarantee the uniqueness of a missing episode and, I would suggest, complete anonymity for the buyer and seller, then I can understand why a buyer might want to spend £10K + on one.
If it is not possible to guarantee this, then all the buyer is doing is paying for an episode to come back to the BBC (eventually, in some form).
Now I know there are some rich and generous people out there, and maybe if this happens someone will step forwards. I think it more likely that the people bidding for a missing episode will have the same limited means as the ones currently bidding for an existing episode. We'll have to wait and see.
It would make sense if the cost could be spread out throughout fandom, since it is being done for the sake of fandom, but I cannot see how this could be organised.
I honestly think that this is one of those cases where desirability will not translate into a high sales value. There are too many obstacles to overcome.
Richard
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Post by Steven Sigel on Mar 13, 2012 16:01:47 GMT
I would point out that so far, EVERY known collector who has located a missing Dr. Who episode has voluntarily loaned or given the print back to the BBC - Gordon Hendry, David Stead, Ian Levine, Francis Watson, Bruce Grenville, Terry Burnett (forgive me if I've left anyone out).
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Post by Charles Daniels on Mar 13, 2012 16:17:33 GMT
AFAIK, this is the absolute highest price any Dr. Who print has ever sold for (at least in public). Any idea why this is the case? Must just be the right people watching it. I had planned to sit back until the last possible second of that auction and go up to £1000 But it's passed that now!
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Post by Steven Sigel on Mar 13, 2012 16:56:05 GMT
Any idea why this is the case? Must just be the right people watching it. I had planned to sit back until the last possible second of that auction and go up to £1000 But it's passed that now! My guess is: 1) Lots of publicity - few people knew about "Terror of the Autons" last year - it was on Ebay-US, not Ebay-UK, and never was posted to any of these forums. 2) More people interested given the recent returns, and the popularity of the new show...
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Post by Giles Sparrow on Mar 13, 2012 17:08:39 GMT
My guess is: 1) Lots of publicity - few people knew about "Terror of the Autons" last year - it was on Ebay-US, not Ebay-UK, and never was posted to any of these forums. 2) More people interested given the recent returns, and the popularity of the new show... Also, as someone over on GB has also pointed out, the publicity around the auction is probably drawing in a number of eBay neophytes, who won't be as canny about their bidding strategies as the seasoned "pros". Therefore there's been more opportunity for the price to skyrocket early, instead of the usual sluggish start followed by a last-day frenzy of activity. And put me down as someone else who was sitting it out with a fantasy of swooping in at the last minute, too...
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