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Post by Martin McDowell on Jul 30, 2008 17:41:17 GMT
This is not even strong enough a fact to even be a very very long shot at finding a missing episode but just thought I would mention that I have read in DWM95 (page38) that David Whitaker was working on a novelisation of Enemy of the World when he died in 1980 and was then planning one of Evil of the Daleks.
As he was living in Australia at that time, I was just wondering what resources he may have had on which to base his novel. Could he perhaps have had a film copy, telesnaps or maybe just a script? I suppose we'll never know, after all as far as I am aware nothing survives of his drafted Enemy of the World book and so it is unlikely that any of his source material would have survived either.
I am unaware if David has any surviving family in Australia but just thought I would mention this just in case it was of interest or of use to anyone.
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Post by Steven Sigel on Jul 30, 2008 17:44:46 GMT
He didn't have a film copy of either show as they were missing by that time... (Ep 2 of evil was recovered later in the 80s, and I don't remember where Enemy ep 3 came from).
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Post by LanceM on Jul 30, 2008 18:04:43 GMT
Enemy of the World Episode 3 was never lost by the BBC. It was kept in the archive. When the archive purges were taking place in the 1970's Episode 3 was kept to display as an example of 1960's TV programing for the archive. They also kept The Underwater Menace episode as well as another example of 1960's TV ( Earliest Surviving Troughton episode as well might add ). Hope this info was of some assistance.
Cheers, Lance.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Jul 30, 2008 18:11:14 GMT
WH Allen would have done the same with Whitaker as they did with all their authors - they provided them with a copy of the BBC scripts.
Richard
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Post by Martin McDowell on Jul 30, 2008 18:25:23 GMT
Thanks for all the (lightning quick) clarifications - it all makes sense to me now!
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Post by Adrian Gregg on Jul 31, 2008 1:21:44 GMT
keeping EOTW 3 as an example of 60's TV, nahh thats what you'd want to belive. but DR meant nothing to the beeb.. there are many many other programs the beeb kept and would never destroy. kept in thier small archive storage. we'd like to think people would concider dr who to be the defining points of 60's tv for the bbc.. but i expect the episode just happend to slip by destruction.. it would be more credible if they had kept an "out of the unknown" as an example of 60's tv.. not a kids show.. I mean they kept nothing of the 2nd year of "That was the week that was" and most people were calling that show a "milestone in Brit TV" "satire is born" etc etc.. i could go on.. so by the mid 70's people Knew TW3 was somthing important to keep. but diddn't.. you would have thought paradine productions would have kept much more of david's work but NIX nahh the archive was ALL hit and miss
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Post by Andrew Martin on Aug 15, 2008 16:37:39 GMT
Errr... both series of TW3 exist complete except for the first reel of the very first edition (which went missing in the 60s it seems).
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Post by johnstewart on Sept 7, 2008 19:55:36 GMT
Enemy of the World Episode 3 was never lost by the BBC. It was kept in the archive. When the archive purges were taking place in the 1970's Episode 3 was kept to display as an example of 1960's TV programing for the archive. They also kept The Underwater Menace episode as well as another example of 1960's TV ( Earliest Surviving Troughton episode as well might add ). Hope this info was of some assistance. Cheers, Lance. I wouldn't want to challenge you Lance as there may indeed be records indicating that. However as far as I recall Archivist Sue Malden in her 1981 interview for 'Doctor Who monthly' didn't make reference to any 1960s 'Doctor Who' being formally archived. The episodes selected were by the technical department from Pertwee and appear to be DAY OF THE DALEKS; THREE DOCTORS; CARNIVAL OF MONSTERS and THE GREEN DEATH. From the last Pertwee season on; bearing in mind 'Invasion of Dinosaurs' 1 was wiped as someone thought it was the released Troughton story INVASION the series was kept on tape; probably as enterprises wanted the masters as they were then selling to more buyers using colour tape including several American purchasers.
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Post by johnstewart on Sept 7, 2008 20:15:59 GMT
Hi; just to add also.
There were a selection of oddment tapes also in the technicians department. These appeared to include one episode of THE DAEMONS; the last 3 of SEA DEVILS; most of PLANET OF THE DALEKS; episode 1 of AMBASSADORS OF DEATH and the studio material for CLAWS OF AXOS. I always thought THE DAEMONS episode got through as Barry Letts had originally been consulted and suggested this story be held rather than wiped. The serial was probably wiped in 3 batches as they normally did; and presumably that leftover was the last batch. I reckon that someone at that stage remembered what Letts had said; realised the error and thought they had better shelve it.
SEA DEVILS probably survived as the tapes were accessioned again for the compilation. I would guess maybe these got orphaned and originally forgotten and later deliberately left there by other technicians.
The AMBASSADORS episode is the only one to contain a different title sequence and pre credits teaser. It is possible the technicians wanted to hold it for that reason or possibly the radiophonic workshop who had their own archive and various 'Who' title sequence masters and tests. Of course the titles themselves would have been sent short term to the Film Library so they could be reused in later ongoing episodes.
Whilst the Archive held complete programmes my suspicion is that film inserts were only sent there for short term storage in case something went wrong with the VT recording. This would explain why there is no complete catalogue of film inserts for the show.
It was said that entries made as 35mm telerecordings were sent to the Library. This was probably not for posterity but just as they cost so much to make; and with a videotape they would aim to wipe the tape; which cost 200 pounds; 10 times over; and thus economise. With a film recording; you could not reuse it, so all the costs would be lost. Apart from WHEEL IN SPACE 5 and POWER OF THE DALEKS 6; all the episodes made as 35mm T/Rs exist in the Library.
I would think ENEMY OF THE WORLD 3 was kept only as when the Department requested the VT for wiping in 1969; they needed a master for enterprises to use. It's possible that master got cycled round departments and ended up in the Archive.
I had heard that UNDERWATER MENACE 3 was kept because it cost so much to make. If you examine the Fish people; they seem to be put together from drinking straws; sequins; polythene; lipstick and nose putty. So I could never understand that.
As an example of the show at the time; its actually a side line story and a random oddment. MOONBASE or EVIL OF THE DALEKS; with the end battle set; the 8 new glass fibre Cybermen helmets and operating chest units; the Graviron set and lots of models; surely must have been far more costly?
Ian Levine said later that prints of AN UNEARTHLY CHILD were in the vaults complete when he first inspected. In addition there were a selection of viewing prints. He said these were probably used for clips in other things after which maybe producers sent them there in case they would be reused again. None of the episodes seem to have been stored for any particular merits.
It is known that projection previewer Roger Stevens had an interest in 'Who'; and its possible that when he was dealing with showing prints to departments; he may have put these oddments into the archive so there was some 1960s 'Doctor Who' to show people in the future.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2008 23:03:40 GMT
I think what Lance meant was that Enemy Of The World 3 was always kept by the BBC not due to deliberate archiving policy but that it just (for some reason) happened to escape being junked until a time came when the archive started to actively retain items. Not that I know anything about this myself to say for certain.
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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Sept 8, 2008 7:57:48 GMT
From the last Pertwee season on; bearing in mind 'Invasion of Dinosaurs' 1 was wiped as someone thought it was the released Troughton story INVASION the series was kept on tape; probably as enterprises wanted the masters as they were then selling to more buyers using colour tape including several American purchasers. I thought this explanation for the erasure of 'IoTD' 1 had been dismissed as an urban myth. Bear in mind that the BBC also wiped their master tape of 'Death to the Daleks' 1 (an NTSC copy was recovered from Canada, while a PAL copy came back from Dubai some years later). The BBC may have intended to retain all the master tapes for Pertwee's last season but it didn't happen.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2008 8:39:56 GMT
I think the only reason the final Pertwee season didn't get wiped (apart from the odd eps by accident) was that the BBC hadn't worked their way through to it yet! Eventually they would have got there (and to the T.Bakers etc.) if BBC archive policy had not changed by the late '70s / early '80s.
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Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 8, 2008 9:34:21 GMT
I always thought THE DAEMONS episode got through as Barry Letts had originally been consulted and suggested this story be held rather than wiped. The serial was probably wiped in 3 batches as they normally did; and presumably that leftover was the last batch. I reckon that someone at that stage remembered what Letts had said; realised the error and thought they had better shelve it. Except there was never any agreement, formal or informal for The Daemons to be kept. I'm not aware that any Pertwee episode were deliberately being kept. They remained, more by oversight than judgement. No, they were sent to the Film Library because that's what the Film Library was for - the storage of programming that had *originated* on film. Richard
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Post by Richard Bignell on Sept 8, 2008 9:35:09 GMT
I thought this explanation for the erasure of 'IoTD' 1 had been dismissed as an urban myth. Indeed it has. No truth in it at all! ;D Richard
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Post by Ash Stewart on Sept 8, 2008 11:29:31 GMT
And the reason there's no truth in it is because the Troughton episode was wiped before the Pertwee episode was even made...
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