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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Sept 8, 2008 16:40:10 GMT
I'm not aware that any Pertwee episode were deliberately being kept. They remained, more by oversight than judgement. Up until 1978, the BBC seemed fairly cavalier in its treatment of all 'Who', regardless of vintage. When 'The Deadly Assassin' was censored for a UK repeat, wasn't the cut made to the master tape?
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Post by johnstewart on Sept 8, 2008 20:48:33 GMT
I always thought THE DAEMONS episode got through as Barry Letts had originally been consulted and suggested this story be held rather than wiped. The serial was probably wiped in 3 batches as they normally did; and presumably that leftover was the last batch. I reckon that someone at that stage remembered what Letts had said; realised the error and thought they had better shelve it. Except there was never any agreement, formal or informal for The Daemons to be kept. I'm not aware that any Pertwee episode were deliberately being kept. They remained, more by oversight than judgement. No, they were sent to the Film Library because that's what the Film Library was for - the storage of programming that had *originated* on film. Richard What you say about Pertwee does make sense; but I seem to remember Sue Malden did say in her interview the department kept one or two here and there to show what the show was like. I was just assuming those that were pre 74 and remained complete to have been selected to keep?
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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Sept 9, 2008 8:02:12 GMT
Do the 16mm camera negatives for 'Spearhead from Space' still exist? If so, it's the earliest 'Who' story to survive intact in its original form.
'Day of the Daleks' is the earliest story for which all the original master tapes have survived. I guess it was a big deal in 1972: the return of the Daleks after five years; their first 'Who' appearance in colour (on TV). It's a reasonable assumption that the story was selected for preservation, but I don't think this reflects attitudes of the time. Like most other TV shows, 'Who' was essentially product with a finite shelf-life.
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Post by johnstewart on Sept 15, 2008 19:41:20 GMT
I think what Lance meant was that Enemy Of The World 3 was always kept by the BBC not due to deliberate archiving policy but that it just (for some reason) happened to escape being junked until a time came when the archive started to actively retain items. Not that I know anything about this myself to say for certain. Well of course I wasn't meaning to say I know better or put Lance down; just that as far as I know the 60s WHO episodes weren't actually selected as examples at the time for their merits. I may have misinterpreted the post! As an example even of ENEMY THE WORLD itself which I remember quite well, episode 3 is less dynamic and interesting unfortunately than most of the other ones I saw (most except part 4 as I was waiting for it to get to another story)! UNDERWATER MENACE is also not that representative bar that Troughton dresses up in it. I would say the existing MOONBASE, EVIL, MACRA, TOMB, ABOMINABLE SNOWMEN and ICE WARRIORS episodes are the best representing his early period. But those weren't intentionally kept either!
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Post by Nick Cooper on Sept 17, 2008 13:59:54 GMT
Do the 16mm camera negatives for 'Spearhead from Space' still exist? If so, it's the earliest 'Who' story to survive intact in its original form. No it isn't because, as had been pointed out, some 1960s episode were made as 35mm tele-recordings, rather than on VT, and some of them survive as such.
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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Sept 17, 2008 14:08:00 GMT
Do the 16mm camera negatives for 'Spearhead from Space' still exist? If so, it's the earliest 'Who' story to survive intact in its original form. No it isn't because, as had been pointed out, some 1960s episode were made as 35mm tele-recordings, rather than on VT, and some of them survive as such. Those are individual episodes rather than complete stories. In all instances I can think of, such as 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' 5, the other episodes are 16mm film recordings of the original V/Ts.
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Post by John Fleming on Sept 17, 2008 15:59:18 GMT
UNDERWATER MENACE is also not that representative bar that Troughton dresses up in it. I would say the existing MOONBASE, EVIL, MACRA, TOMB, ABOMINABLE SNOWMEN and ICE WARRIORS episodes are the best representing his early period. But those weren't intentionally kept either! Existing Macra Do you mean the cine clips or do you know something we don't?
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Post by Nick Cooper on Sept 17, 2008 16:05:12 GMT
No it isn't because, as had been pointed out, some 1960s episode were made as 35mm tele-recordings, rather than on VT, and some of them survive as such. Those are individual episodes rather than complete stories. In all instances I can think of, such as 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' 5, the other episodes are 16mm film recordings of the original V/Ts. It's a bit of an arbitrary milestone, though.
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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Sept 17, 2008 16:37:58 GMT
Those are individual episodes rather than complete stories. In all instances I can think of, such as 'Dalek Invasion of Earth' 5, the other episodes are 16mm film recordings of the original V/Ts. It's a bit of an arbitrary milestone, though. When it comes to 'Doctor Who' preservation c.1963-74, arbitrariness is the name of the game. And I never said it was a milestone, just a fact. If 'Spearhead' had been made in the standard 'Who' fashion of its era, blending studio v/t and filmed inserts, I doubt it would still be complete in its original form.
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Post by Phillip Culley on Sept 17, 2008 17:21:30 GMT
UNDERWATER MENACE is also not that representative bar that Troughton dresses up in it. I would say the existing MOONBASE, EVIL, MACRA, TOMB, ABOMINABLE SNOWMEN and ICE WARRIORS episodes are the best representing his early period. But those weren't intentionally kept either! Existing Macra Do you mean the cine clips or do you know something we don't? I assume he means The Faceless Ones...
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Post by William Martin on Sept 17, 2008 17:52:06 GMT
steady now this is how rumours start
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Post by johnstewart on Sept 21, 2008 19:32:28 GMT
Existing Macra Do you mean the cine clips or do you know something we don't? I assume he means The Faceless Ones... No sorry to disappoint! I meant the recovered New Zealand censor clips (re 'LOST IN TIME' DVD). These were the recovered 16mm T/R segments featuring the Monsters. They are very representative of the feel of the story; though theres no real dialogue. The super 8mm home footage someone took is also included in that package. These contain some dialogue but as far as representing the broadcast story are disappointing; but better than nothing. I recall three main sequences from its original broadcast; the new 'end sequence' with episode 1; which reminded me of the view on Holiday with my Dad driving along Southsea seafront and the lights by night. The first appearance at the end of that episode where as the Doctor talked to a man crouching down in a Stable like building. Then suddenly he goes 'Look!' and the Macra turns with its eyes like torches. The recap also in the next episode where my Mum refused to watch it with me so I missed it. Then episode 3; a scene where Jamie is grabbed and squeezed by the Macra claw and tries to squeeze out; and Ben and Polly running towards the Tardis seen through thick wooden doors lit at the end of a shaft. They manage to close the doors on the Macras claw as it grabs them and tries to pull them back inside. As a result; episode 3 is the one I would most like to see again! P.S. the super 8 contains part of the Jamie scene but cuts off before the Macra gets there!!
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Post by johnstewart on Sept 21, 2008 19:37:19 GMT
I'm not aware that any Pertwee episode were deliberately being kept. They remained, more by oversight than judgement. Up until 1978, the BBC seemed fairly cavalier in its treatment of all 'Who', regardless of vintage. When 'The Deadly Assassin' was censored for a UK repeat, wasn't the cut made to the master tape? By the time that story went out the Archive policy was changing. That scene was an exception. It had been the case that investigation of yet another complaint by the Viewers and Listeners association brought to light a true case where a young boy had tried to emulate the drowning seen in one of the episodes on his younger Sister. The Head of Department or Controller I recall was so concerned that the BBC might be directly seen as being attributable; even for legal reasons; that they ordered the shot be cut out and freeze framed for the 'omnibus' repeat. I'm not sure that this was effected to the actual master tape as I recall a freeze frame was used. Now I may be wrong; as I faintly seem to recall someone said the original shot had to be reinstated from an overseas sales copy later?
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Post by Daniel O'Brien on Sept 23, 2008 7:59:03 GMT
I'm not sure that this was effected to the actual master tape as I recall a freeze frame was used. Now I may be wrong; as I faintly seem to recall someone said the original shot had to be reinstated from an overseas sales copy later? I read that the censored footage was reinstated from a domestic U-matic recording. I watched the video release of 'Deadly Assassin' not long ago and the restored shot seemed to be from a non-broadcast quality source.
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Post by Greg H on Sept 23, 2008 11:49:18 GMT
Wasnt it from ian levine's off air recording or am I barking up the wrong tree?
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