|
Post by John Andersen on Nov 7, 2007 1:16:51 GMT
Ah well, I guess we'll just grow old never getting a chance to see web or fury or any of the other classics. Yeah, that is what makes it hard to be a Doctor Who fan. If you were not living in the right place and the right time when the lost episodes were still being shown, then you are screwed.
|
|
|
Post by B Thomas on Nov 8, 2007 0:53:03 GMT
I spose we should be grateful for the little we have :/ but still it kinda hurts my blood pressure to think of the lame choices that were made back in the 70s when they should have known better. Home video recorders were getting more common, they should have known that there would be a lucrative market eventually. Ah well, I guess we'll just grow old never getting a chance to see web or fury or any of the other classics.............. feeling fairly downbeat today as you may be able to tell................... While it may be upsetting that so many things have been lost, GH, we really can't harbour so much animosity to those people making such decisions. It may seem unconceivable to those who didn't grow up during the sixties and seventies but a lot of people viewed repeats with a lot of hostility. I can remember many of my own family being disgusted when a favourite programme turned out to be a repeat during the seventies. Video recorders weren't that prevalent during this time and something that only rich people had. Even then, they'd only tape things they would otherwise miss and taped over them soon after. We used to do something similar back in the days of regional programming when we'd visit someone in a different region to see a programme we'd missed - though the main reason we'd go was to visit the person. With all this in mind, and with the tight copyright rules in operation then (cite: the Monkhouse case), it may simply have not occurred to broadcasters that someone would want something on the shelves at home that they had already seen umpteen times...
|
|
|
Post by Greg H on Nov 8, 2007 8:46:25 GMT
Fair play. But in my own experience, I can remember very distinctly older family members complaining that they would love to see a repeat of 'those yeti stories' (not any other ones though), specifically, several times when I was young. In fact I can remember family members saying how much they would enjoy to see repeats of other favorite programs as well. As a child I could have quite happily watched repeats of good stuff all day long rather than something new and a bit iffy. Whatever the justification, it is still chronically short sighted of the relevant parties to do what they did. But carping about it wont change anything, so I wont go on about it. Lets just hope some collector relinquishes their prints from their collection at some point.
|
|
|
Post by Steven Sigel on Nov 8, 2007 13:57:35 GMT
Lets just hope some collector relinquishes their prints from their collection at some point. Doesn't that rather assume that such a collector actually exists? (which I think is highly unlikely). .....
|
|
|
Post by Greg H on Nov 8, 2007 15:22:09 GMT
I know this is a pretty loaded topic but here goes! It is a well known fact that people have hung onto 16mm prints (etc) for decades before now. It is also a well known fact that people have obsessively hunted for missing who (specifically, but other shows as well) for a few decades now. It is also an easily demonstrable fact (imo) that not everyone plays from the same rule book; just look at a news paper to see the horrible things people do to each other every day. Not everyone in the world is nice. Taking these facts into account I personally find it highly likely that everything that people have found has not been handed back to the relevant organisations for the public to enjoy. You are free to disagree with me about that, but it is my opinion.
|
|
|
Post by John Andersen on Nov 8, 2007 17:01:11 GMT
I know this is a pretty loaded topic but here goes! It is a well known fact that people have hung onto 16mm prints (etc) for decades before now. It is also a well known fact that people have obsessively hunted for missing who (specifically, but other shows as well) for a few decades now. It is also an easily demonstrable fact (imo) that not everyone plays from the same rule book; just look at a news paper to see the horrible things people do to each other every day. Not everyone in the world is nice. Taking these facts into account I personally find it highly likely that everything that people have found has not been handed back to the relevant organisations for the public to enjoy. You are free to disagree with me about that, but it is my opinion. That is a possibility when it comes to hardened collectors. There are some people that will not hand over something of value unless there is something big in it for them. That is just the way some people are in this day and age.
|
|
|
Post by Daniel O'Brien on Nov 8, 2007 17:44:19 GMT
There may be some collectors - hardened or otherwise - who would keep missing material to themselves rather than let others enjoy it. But how many of these hypothetical collectors would be interested in 16mm copies of 1960s 'Doctor Who' episodes, let alone possess copies of missing programmes?
This is a classic no-win situation. If these people exist, they will continue to hoard any missing material unless someone tracks them down somehow and makes them an offer they can't refuse. I just don't see this as a likely scenario. And what if they weren't interested in making money but simply wanted to own something no-one else had. Why torture yourself over an incredibly remote possibility that wouldn't bring back any missing episodes even if it turned out to be the case?
|
|
|
Post by Ron Bowes on Nov 8, 2007 18:30:28 GMT
I've heard the defence of the BBC in junking argument before, but I don't thonk it holds much water. A lot of people, such as myself, rented VHS machines at around '78, when the BBC were still junking. I think it showed commercial short sightedness to be wiping tapes at this time! The BBC were under the misconception that anything B&W was old hat and nobody would want to see it, despite numerous polls suggesting otherwise. When they did release B&W videos they were quickly withdrawn due to poor sales! From my experience of trying to buy "The seeds of death" on its release - in London, I couldn't find a single shop that stocked it! That becomes a self fulfilling prophecy if you don't promote because you don't think it will sell!
Ron
|
|
|
Post by Steven Sigel on Nov 8, 2007 21:45:56 GMT
This has been rehashed on various forums about 100 times but here goes (refering only to Doctor who for the moment):
1) There were very few Dr. Who prints made up in the first place and most of them were destroyed... 2) There are very few Dr. Who prints in private collections AT ALL. Forget about missing epiosdes. Just look at how many have been on ebay in the past 10 years -- I believe the number is less than 10, and of those 10 - several were the dupes that were made from "borrowed" prints in the 80s, and almost all of the others came from one of two collections. The largest collection of 16mm prints out there came from Ian Levine - and he bought most the prints from the BBC - which means that they struck them specificically for him, rather than the prints finding their way into his hands from ex-tv use... That probably accounts for 80% of the collection.
If missing episodes are out there to be found, you would think that non missing episodes would be out there too -- yet, as I just said, there are very few of them out there... Compare that to a show like "Star Trek" where there are literally thousands of 16mm prints in private collections -- I personally have had about 200 prints over the years.
There are two possible types of collectors out there who *might* have episodes. a) Collectors who do not know what they have. This, IMO, is the best possiblility for finding any (out of private collections) . b) Collectors who DO know what they have and are actively "hoarding" them while NO ONE else knows about it ... Remember that in the few cases where collectors had Dr. Who (or other shows like A for Andromeda), people knew about it long before the prints were" recovered".. One guy (I can't remember who) ran his prints at a Dr. Who convention........ The idea that it could be kept secret for that many years without any rumblings of information strikes me as very unlikely....
|
|
|
Post by Ron Bowes on Nov 8, 2007 22:15:36 GMT
I agree that the chances of any new finds are extremely remote (one always lives in hope, though). It makes it all the more irritating that the BBC 2 entertain have decided to shelve animating missing episodes. Although, I saw all the stories at the time, and have enjoyed the reconstructions, I thought the animated "Invasion" episodes were as good as you can get, short of the real thing.
Ron
|
|
|
Post by johnstewart on Nov 9, 2007 15:58:11 GMT
This has been rehashed on various forums about 100 times but here goes (refering only to Doctor who for the moment): 1) There were very few Dr. Who prints made up in the first place and most of them were destroyed... 2) There are very few Dr. Who prints in private collections AT ALL. Forget about missing epiosdes. Just look at how many have been on ebay in the past 10 years -- I believe the number is less than 10, and of those 10 - several were the dupes that were made from "borrowed" prints in the 80s, and almost all of the others came from one of two collections. The largest collection of 16mm prints out there came from Ian Levine - and he bought most the prints from the BBC - which means that they struck them specificically for him, rather than the prints finding their way into his hands from ex-tv use... That probably accounts for 80% of the collection. If missing episodes are out there to be found, you would think that non missing episodes would be out there too -- yet, as I just said, there are very few of them out there... Compare that to a show like "Star Trek" where there are literally thousands of 16mm prints in private collections -- I personally have had about 200 prints over the years. There are two possible types of collectors out there who *might* have episodes. a) Collectors who do not know what they have. This, IMO, is the best possiblility for finding any (out of private collections) . b) Collectors who DO know what they have and are actively "hoarding" them while NO ONE else knows about it ... Remember that in the few cases where collectors had Dr. Who (or other shows like A for Andromeda), people knew about it long before the prints were" recovered".. One guy (I can't remember who) ran his prints at a Dr. Who convention........ The idea that it could be kept secret for that many years without any rumblings of information strikes me as very unlikely.... I think the 'Web of fear' rumours date back to the late 1980s - 85 - 89 period. During this time there were a few recurring quotes in the 'Celestial Toyroom' fanzine. One concerned 'Episode 4 of ABOMINABLE SNOWMEN and 2 of CELESTIAL TOYMAKER existing in a London nightclub'. The 'Web' rumour was explained to me by collector Mick Hall. He summarised by saying 'it was believed that Mervyn Haisman took his own set of prints of this the second of the Yets stories'. Possibly as they had made their mark by the second story. At that time it was said that 'Haisman would not co operate in returning copies to the BBC because he and Henry Lincoln were bitter that they were not allowed; (for understandable reasons though); to take exclusive contracts out on the Yeti; as T. nation had with the Daleks'. I think this was probably the beginning of these rumours originally.
|
|
|
Post by Jon Preddle on Nov 9, 2007 22:32:27 GMT
There are two possible types of collectors out there who *might* have episodes. a) Collectors who do not know what they have. This, IMO, is the best possiblility for finding any (out of private collections) . And for evidence of this, look no further than "The Lion". That film passed through at least six different owners between 1967 and 1998, without 'fans' ever catching wind of it. It was only through a chance meeting that the existence of the prints came to the attention of fans. The 'funniest' aspect of this is that Bruce Grenville, the last owner, had it listed in his on-line catalogue! Jon Preddle
|
|
|
Post by Greg H on Nov 9, 2007 23:37:52 GMT
For another two possible types that get discussed a bit, Dalek masterplan 2 was taken home by an employee, and A for andromeda was held onto by a private collector in full knowledge of what they had /: Maybe two completely unique events in the world, but perhaps not.
I am personally tempted to attribute the misunderstanding (or whatever) about the web of fear most recently to JNTs 16mm footage from it coming onto the market. It could have been a case of chinese whispers perhaps?
|
|
|
Post by John Andersen on Nov 28, 2007 16:06:31 GMT
I am personally tempted to attribute the misunderstanding (or whatever) about the web of fear most recently to JNTs 16mm footage from it coming onto the market. It could have been a case of chinese whispers perhaps? According to Steve Roberts at the Doctor Who Technical Forum, what Doctor Who Online was reporting was a hoax from the start. Giving free publicity to hoaxers is very disappointing, and this is the second Web of Fear hoax I have seen this year.
|
|
|
Post by Greg H on Nov 28, 2007 17:26:12 GMT
Yes, I wish hoaxers would pack it in, its a very pointless hobby.
|
|