DWO's Web Of Fear Rumor Crumbles.

[Greg H]

Who knows..? ^^

I have always had a feeling that material such as web of fear is lurking somewhere.
Will I get to see it in my lifetime? Thats a different question really.

[Daniel O'Brien]

gh said:

Who knows..? ^^

I have always had a feeling that material such as web of fear is lurking somewhere.
Will I get to see it in my lifetime? Thats a different question really.

My guess is that 'Web of Fear' 2-6 were junked after being returned to BBC Enterprises by an overseas buyer. Part 1 survived because it came back later, after Sue Malden took charge of the newly founded BBC Film and Videotape Archive. I would love to be proved wrong, but I'd be amazed if any more Troughton episodes are recovered. Mind you, what's life without a little amazement?

[Greg H]

True, and frankly I live to be amazed.
After all the giant squid was photographed alive recently, and some people said that would never happen. Unlikely things do happen, occasionally!

I expect to see more Troughton before the next decade (or two) is out, and yes I know im a foundless optimist. Any hoarders will likely keep on hoarding, 60s video recordings will likely be unplayable, blah negative blah, but I sincerely live in hope.

[Richard Bignell]

dobrien said:

Part 1 survived because it came back later, after Sue Malden took charge of the newly founded BBC Film and Videotape Archive.

Not quite. Sue didn't start heading up the Archive until mid-1978. The Web of Fear #1 was back at the BBC by (at least) late 1976.

Richard

[John Andersen]

richardbignell said:

Not quite. Sue didn't start heading up the Archive until mid-1978. The Web of Fear #1 was back at the BBC by (at least) late 1976.

Richard

I would love to search that archive in Hong Kong just to see what turns up. If they could misplace The Tomb Of The Cybermen, then there might be a few more Doctor Who episodes from seasons 4 or 5 that have been misplaced. and have not been found yet.

[Daniel O'Brien]

richardbignell said:

dobrien said:

Part 1 survived because it came back later, after Sue Malden took charge of the newly founded BBC Film and Videotape Archive.

Not quite. Sue didn't start heading up the Archive until mid-1978. The Web of Fear #1 was back at the BBC by (at least) late 1976.

Richard

Thanks for the clarification. That'll teach me to believe what I read in 'Doctor Who Monthly' during my misspent youth.

[Daniel O'Brien]

johnandersen said:

richardbignell said:

Not quite. Sue didn't start heading up the Archive until mid-1978. The Web of Fear #1 was back at the BBC by (at least) late 1976.

Richard

I would love to search that archive in Hong Kong just to see what turns up. If they could misplace The Tomb Of The Cybermen, then there might be a few more Doctor Who episodes from seasons 4 or 5 that have been misplaced. and have not been found yet.

Don't get your hopes up. Asia Television has moved premises at least once since 'Tomb' was returned. The chances of them still holding any 1960s BBC programmes on film are very slim. There may still be some unchecked vaults over there, but I doubt it.

[Greg H]

Sadly your probably right about HK

[Doug Wulf]

From my chat with Sue Malden...

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DW: Let me say that some of the fruits of your labour were recently shown on BBC4. Just last night The Web of Fear: Episode One was rebroadcast (Note: On March 18, 2007).

SM: Oh! Excellent!

DW: What are your memories of finding that episode in a batch of prints returned from Hong Kong? Or perhaps of finding the pilot episode of Doctor Who?

SM: Well, the pilot was always in the BBC archives, well, as long as I knew. When I became the first archive selector for the BBC, what was important for me to do was to raise the issues about archiving among the broadcasting community, particularly the BBC, making managers and producers aware of its importance and having a policy for deciding how and what should be kept, and effectively carrying that out.

(exerpted)

Once I then got my list of episodes and the ones that were missing, I thought, “Well, how on earth can you replace them?” That’s when I found out about how much had been sold by the BBC in the very early days. Although the programmes were made on videotape, the BBC sold them on film recordings and that immediately gives the programme a much better chance of surviving, because you can’t reuse film. So, although programmes were sold for a limited period of time, and the purchasers or licensee had to agree to return them or destroy them, in many cases, it was probably too much trouble or cost to bother returning them. And then they didn’t bother to destroy them. And they couldn’t be reused like videotape. So that’s how film recordings of Doctor Who were still around with broadcasters who had licensed programmes from the BBC.

DW: I see.

SM: And that’s how I found the episode of The Web of Fear. When I found out that the BBC had been selling them, I made contact with people in Enterprises, which was the commercial arm of the BBC then, and found out that they were getting quite a lot of programmes returned. So, I then asked them if I could go through all their returns before they destroyed them. That’s when and how we found lots of Doctor Who in the early stages. I worked very closely with a guy called Ian Levine. I set up a process whereby anytime anything came back for destruction at BBC Enterprises and at Worldwide, they let me know, and I could go through them and check anything that was there. Not just Doctor Who, but all sorts of programmes. We certainly got a lot of Doctor Who that way. So, the next step then was to think how much was lurking around and just being retained by the original broadcasters, but they’re not bothering to return them. So again, we found programmes in this way all over the place. So given that history, on the one hand, you’re inclined to think, well, we’ve exhausted everything. On the other hand, I’m not totally surprised that we’re still finding things years and years later, and I always live in hope that we might find something else.

[John Andersen]

dobrien said:

Don't get your hopes up. Asia Television has moved premises at least once since 'Tomb' was returned. The chances of them still holding any 1960s BBC programmes on film are very slim. There may still be some unchecked vaults over there, but I doubt it.

That is really disappointing. We just can't seem to get a good break at recovering any Troughton stories, do we?

[William Martin]

just to be depressing, what is the life expectancy of a TR and VT, when will all the originals be degraded beyond recovery? ie when do we stop looking.

[Daniel O'Brien]

william said:

just to be depressing, what is the life expectancy of a TR and VT, when will all the originals be degraded beyond recovery? ie when do we stop looking.

A film recording stored in good conditions should last for decades. Poorly stored film can deteriorate quite fast, especially in humid conditions.

None of the 1960s 'Doctor Who' episodes still exist in their original VT form. I've no idea how long any off-air domestic video recordings could last, even if kept in the best possible conditions.

[Steven Sigel]

If properly stored, (and not treated with rejevenation chemicals) film prints should last pretty much indefinitely. I've got prints in my collection from as early as the 1920s, and some from the 1930s/40s that look like they were struck last week.

[Daniel O'Brien]

johnandersen said:

dobrien said:

Don't get your hopes up. Asia Television has moved premises at least once since 'Tomb' was returned. The chances of them still holding any 1960s BBC programmes on film are very slim. There may still be some unchecked vaults over there, but I doubt it.

That is really disappointing. We just can't seem to get a good break at recovering any Troughton stories, do we?

The recovery of 'Tomb' was an extraordinary break. I clearly recall my amazement when I read the news on the cover of a fan magazine back in 1992. The earlier recovery of most of 'The Ice Warriors' was also a highpoint. Prior to this, only single episodes had come back to boost the BBC's meagre collection of Troughton 'Doctor Who'.

On the whole, the Troughton era was a notable victim of the attitudes and assumptions towards TV prevalent at the time. It's a huge shame that there were no overseas sales during that crucial period in the early 1970s when BBC Enterprises started junking 'redundant' prints.

[Greg H]

I spose we should be grateful for the little we have :/ but still it kinda hurts my blood pressure to think of the lame choices that were made back in the 70s when they should have known better. Home video recorders were getting more common, they should have known that there would be a lucrative market eventually. Ah well, I guess we'll just grow old never getting a chance to see web or fury or any of the other classics.............. feeling fairly downbeat today as you may be able to tell...................