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Post by Richard Bignell on Feb 4, 2005 23:56:02 GMT
He states that the source of sales is secondary as the paperwork has all been destroyed, the information gathered was done by using the actual overseas sales and residual payments to the actors. If this is the case, does this not make an accurate sales account i bit hard to do, and most certainly lead into speculation? Hi Steve, It's certainly true to say that BBC Enterprises sales documentation is not accessable. Much of the work on establishing overseas sales has been gathered by other means, some of which you mention. Others include the agreements and payments made to the writers, as the countries they were sold to were listed on the paperwork for the paltry sums they were paid! The work is very much ongoing though and utilises sources both inside and outside the BBC. Jon Preddle for example has been doing some very interesting work researching the transmission dates of DW in Singapore! That I don't know. But I've never said that paperwork is infallible. It does however provide a reasonably solid starting position to build on. Richard
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Post by Jon Preddle on Feb 5, 2005 5:51:08 GMT
Hi Richard!
Does the address P O 20691 mean anything to you?
I've seen it on a BBC TV Enterprises film can from 1969, but I don't think it's BBC or BBC Enterprises address because AFAIK they don't / didn't have a P O Box contact address.
Jon
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Post by Stephen Neve on Feb 5, 2005 11:50:07 GMT
Hi Stephen, This is precisely my point! You're taking assumptions that you believe to be correct and stating them as if they were solid, hairy fact. Look at how you express it: "Masterplan was only sent to Australia, and only two sets of prints struck." What do we *actually* know about The Daleks Master Plan? We know for a fact that five weeks after its UK transmission, the BBC Enterprises office in Sydney contacted ABC's Controller of Programmes to inform them that Galaxy Four, Mission to the Unknown, The Myth Makers and an 11-part The Daleks' Master Plan were now available to them. We know for a fact that ABC received DMP, viewed it and then rejected it. And that's it. That's *all* we know. The absolute most we can say for certain is that one copy of the story was printed and sent to Australia. Nothing else. We cannot say that DMP was *only* sent to Australia, because we don't know that. We know a lot of countries that DW was sent to, but the records aren't complete. As far as we can ascertain, none of those countries were sent DMP, but until we can go through all of Terry Nation and Dennis Sp ooner's royalty payments in the BBC's Written Archives, we won't know for sure. Neither can we say that there were *only* two copies of the DMP prints made. Once again, that's an assumption that you're making, but you're stating it as being a fact. The recovered episodes 2, 5 and 10 could very well be the prints that the ABC rejected and subsequently sent back to the BBC. They might not. But you're stating as fact something that you think to be the case because prints were sent to Australia and then various episodes turned up in the UK many years later. To say that this means that *only* two sets of prints were made is nothing more than supposition. You might say it's only semantics, but the differences are very important. It reminds me of someone on Outpost Gallifrey who insisted when Day of Armageddon was recovered that it proved that other episodes were out there to be found in the hands of the public. But of course, it didn't prove any such thing! All it proved was that DMP2 in private hands - not any other episodes! Then I'm wondering why you're making errors like these. Why is it "very unlikely that they could have come from Africa or Asia"? And what about Europe? We know that episodes travelled all over the world and from one continent to another. CBC in Cyprus for example sent various episodes onto Uganda whilst others were sent on to RTV in Hong Kong. Likewise New Zealand sent at least two of their Marco Polo episodes off to Iran and the whole of The Time Meddler to Nigeria. In short, episodes were bouncing all over the globe and from continent to continent so they could have come from anywhere. That said, it's certainly not impossible that one or more episodes could have been retrieved from those that had already been disposed of by BBC Enterprises - but then there's nothing to say that they did either. ;D Richard I think this point has gone far enough now. Richard! the whole point of this disscusion is I am saying that the Paperwork is not 100% reliable and you say it is. I'm not claiming that hundreds of prints escaped from the BBC, I am saying that maybe a dozen somehow sneaked out the BBC somehow. Maybe they were rescued from skips or pinched, but the fact is they were saved somehow. Richard you seem set on a document thirty years old, and claims this is the truth and nothing but the truth, you accuse me of using If and butts when that is precicsely what you are doing. 12 episodes maybe a few more have ended up in private hands in the UK, rather than accept the fact that somehow they escaped destruction you fly in wild ideas that people got them from other countries. 1. NO RECOVERED PRINTS in the uk have been edited. I would have thought that if they all came from abroad as you claim a few would have been edited. 2. PRIVATE COLLECTORS Whilst I accept the fact it may have been possible to get prints from Australia, New Zealand to England. I find it very hard to accept that private collectors could get prints from "anywhere" they wanted. How many private collectors do you know in Nigeria, or in other African or Asian countries, I doubt there are any. Some collector is going to ring a guy in Nigeria and say, how much for Evil part one £500, pure fantasy. Now with not trying to upset anyone, Nigeria and other African and Asian countries are not exactlly mega rich! If there are any such collectors I doubt they would have the resources or the funds for such a collection. 3. MASTERPLAN What you can't deny Richard is its very likely that Masterplan 5 and 10 are prints from the BBC, somehow finding there way into a basement of a church!. Maybe Australia returned their prints to the BBC, but thats what I am not arguing about. Its about the fact they somehow missed getting junked by the BBC even if they did originate from abroad. It seems to me Richard that your just a big know-all. And I hope neil turns up the Macra Terror in New Zealand and deflate your huge ego. I shall not be discussing this any further.
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Post by Stephen Neve on Feb 5, 2005 11:53:38 GMT
Oh and Richard! Doctor Who was not shown in EUROPE, barring Cyprus. FACT! And no episodes have been found in Europe ither, except Cyprus.
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Post by stev davies on Feb 5, 2005 12:09:42 GMT
Hi Richard, Thanks for the reply on my last posting! Blimey Stephen mate, lets keep it civil buddy, am sure we can just disagree with each other (previous posting) Quote:the paperwork says it has been destroyed. So what!, it may have been, but past experiences says that is not 100% reliable. With what I've just said in mind, but I bet you can't give me a single example to back it up! Richard "Darn Richard, I was hoping to win my ice cream with my piece on Toymaker 4 being returned after a card saying it had been destroyed was found" Qoute "We cannot say that DMP was *only* sent to Australia, because we don't know that. We know a lot of countries that DW was sent to, but the records aren't complete. As far as we can ascertain, none of those countries were sent DMP, but until we can go through all of Terry Nation and Dennis Sp ooner's royalty payments in the BBC's Written Archives, we won't know for sure." Just one quick point, again I am being naive on this. Did Australia pay royalties despite the fact it was rejected and never screened? And is there any way to access these records, not just for DMP, but for other stories, and not just for Doctor who programmes either. Or am I stretching the elastic tooooo far now on missing episodes an potential recoveries? Thanks once again for your correspondance ;D Steve
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Post by Richard Bignell on Feb 5, 2005 12:29:19 GMT
I think this point has gone far enough now. Richard! the whole point of this disscusion is I am saying that the Paperwork is not 100% reliable and you say it is...Richard you seem set on a document thirty years old, and claims this is the truth and nothing but the truth You keep saying this, and in doing so you are completely and utterly wrong. Would you like to point me to *anywhere* where I've stated that? Or are you willfully just ignoring where I've said things like, "I've never said that paperwork is infallible. It does however provide a reasonably solid starting position to build on"? I accuse you of stating things as being solid facts where they're anything but. Because, according to you, the only place that episodes could have come from if not directly from the BBC is Australia or NZ. That would seem to indicate that you believe that *every* episode that passed through their hands was edited, which of course is far from the truth. Except I never said that, did I Stephen? You're the one who started using Nigeria as an example. I'm not aware I ever did! Episodes 5 and 10 were indeed found in a building that used to be a BBC facility, but that was taken over by the Mormons (as confirmed to me a couple of weeks ago by Steve Bryant). I'm not sure what this has to do with anything though. Ah. And so it descends into silly personal abuse. No "know-all" or "ego" here, Stephen. Just someone who has done a lot of practical research into the subject and someone who has endeavoured to go back to the source of information. The bane of all historical research is trying to separate the real facts from those that people have just made up and treat as being real. It's just rather unfortunate that you seem so entrenched in accepting things as being factual when they're anything but. Gosh! So what on earth was Denmark showing in 1968 under the title Doctor Who? And what about the bucketload of Hartnell and Troughton material transmitted by Gibralter between 1965 and 1973? And I don't suppose that Malta, who purchased material in 1965 and 1967 qualifies as being in Europe on your map of the world either? I've got no problems with that. Richard
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Post by Richard Bignell on Feb 5, 2005 12:44:16 GMT
Just one quick point, again I am being naive on this. Did Australia pay royalties despite the fact it was rejected and never screened? No. Money was only ever exchanged if episodes were transmitted. We can't access BBC Enterprises' records directly. I had it confirmed a couple of weeks ago that under John Birt's rulership, all of Enterprises old paperwork was sent off to commercial storage, which probably means that it'll never see the light of day again! The other records I mentioned are house in the BBC's Written Archives, which can be accessed, but it's a matter of digging through the thousands of documents to find the information you need - and that's if they kept it in the first place! Richard
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Post by Jon Preddle on Feb 5, 2005 22:08:06 GMT
"Quote:1. NO RECOVERED PRINTS in the uk have been edited. I would have thought that if they all came from abroad as you claim a few would have been edited. " [Stephen Neve] As far as my research has uncovered, the only two countries *known* to have edited episodes are Australia and New Zealand. Other countries would have had some form of censorship, but to what degree is not known.
No cut prints have been found in the UK most likely because the BBC didn't want them returned in that state.
Australia *did* send cut prints of some stories to New Zealand in 1967. And New Zealand sent cut prints to Singapore in 1972, who sent some of these to Nigeria - The War Machines for instance. It was Nigeria that returned the cut NZ prints of War Machines to the BBC, but only as a result of the search for missing episodes in the 1980s.
Since the BBC had no use for cut prints, they were quite happy to let them travel around the globe, going from station to station until such time that sales dried up.
Most likely all these cut prints were destroyed on foreign soil...
Jon Preddle
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Post by steve davies on Feb 6, 2005 12:33:15 GMT
Hi Richard
Just a quickl ask on one of your earlier postings. You say Denmark screened Doctor Who in 1968. On your article of overseas sales on the Restoration Team website, Denmark and Malta are not listed (Unless my eyes are really bad) What stories or eras did they actually buy, and is the article going to be altered to show this.
Thanks once again Richard
Steve
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Post by Fatso the wombat on Feb 6, 2005 18:55:25 GMT
The list on the RT forum shows sales of currently missing episodes, not everyone that ever bought DW.
For example, Mexico bought a number of Season 1 & 2 stories, but as none of them were missing, they don't show on this list...
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Post by Jon Preddle on Feb 6, 2005 20:03:56 GMT
Hi Richard Just a quickl ask on one of your earlier postings. You say Denmark screened Doctor Who in 1968. On your article of overseas sales on the Restoration Team website, Denmark and Malta are not listed (Unless my eyes are really bad) What stories or eras did they actually buy, and is the article going to be altered to show this. Thanks once again Richard Steve The NZBC sent its prints of 100,000BC, The Daleks, and Inside the Spaceship to Denmark on 26 March 1968... Ep 1 of Inside the Spaceship was cut by the NZ censors - the scenes with Susan and the scissors.... Jon Preddle
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Post by Richard Molesworth on Feb 6, 2005 20:16:20 GMT
John,
Are you sure 'Edge of Destruction' was sent to Denmark? I thought the traffic records were inconclusive as to what happened to these 2 episodes?
Richard
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Post by LanceM on Feb 6, 2005 22:30:20 GMT
Most likely you would think that the episodes were sent out of the archives and destroyed or thrown out on a rubbish tip. Back to the topic of finding some missing episodes, when those episodes were found in the bacement of the old BBC facility. Possibly the fans should look at all of the previous homes of the BBc, where they used to keep doctor who episodes and other archive material? Some fans in england could contact the BBC to get a full list of the previous archives of the BBC. Such as the find of the Ice Warriors in a cubbard at the old villers house archive. This may be going out on a limb but possibly some of the people who helped to clean out and categorize the various archives decided to hide some episodes? Such a action could explain the Ice Warriors in the Villers House!! Any Ideas?
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Post by Richard Bignell on Feb 6, 2005 22:38:39 GMT
Such a action could explain the Ice Warriors in the Villers House!! Any Ideas? The reason why the four episodes of The Ice Warriors were at Villiers House is that Villiers House is where BBC Enterprises was based and it's where it had it's archive. They were cans of film that hadn't made their way back to the film vault with the others. Richard
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Post by Richard Bignell on Feb 6, 2005 22:40:36 GMT
Does the address P O 20691 mean anything to you? No. I've had a check on the paperwork that I have from Enterprises (such as it is!) and that PO Box number doesn't appear at all. Was this on a DW film can? Was there any more to the address at all? Richard
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