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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 23:04:23 GMT
Sorry for any confusion certainly not wishing to start any unfounded rumours it was purely conjecture from a couple of mention's on here. No confusion, nor any apology needed, Kurt. Both stories have been talked about a lot in the past already. Anyway, God, there's such a multitude of rumours over the years, it's damn-near impossible for anyone to actually start a new, original one!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2018 23:17:02 GMT
I honestly believe the comment about The Tenth Planet #4 still being out there is seriously wishful thinking. Just because three of the four exist doesn't mean to say the last one does. Remember, it's likely that the #4 print that still existed (and was likely returned from Singapore earlier in 1973) was the one that was cut up by the Blue Peter team to extract the regeneration scene. It could very readily been thrown out afterwards - and there's nothing to say the Australian print of 1975 survived either. Therefore, The Tenth Planet #4 is likely gone forever. Never say never, Chris. I'm no fan of the absolute statement of 90 missing episodes are back, nor am I a fan of there's 0 missing episodes back, it's all over. But give me "I believe The Space Pirates has been found", any day. So I have read on the brilliant BroaDWcast website about this - that Tenth Planet #4 used in Blue Peter could have been a Singapore return, but that on the other hand could also have been an unsold copy sitting on a shelf (fingers crossed it was). So I want to put this question to the forum... Does anybody on here have any photographic reference of the film cans for Tenth Planet #1-3? Has anybody on here set eyes on them and recall what they look like? And, if so, do the labels look suspiciously similar to the Ice Warrior film cans - for which we do have photographic reference. These Ice Warrior film cans are suspected to have come back from Singapore. Now, if the surviving Tenth Planet #1-3 film cans look the same ('cutting copy' labels etc.), does this mean we can join up some more dots, and say, yes it's likely these are not unsold copies, but are the last known prints from Singapore and start drawing some tentative conclusions that the Singapore films were indeed returned in 1973 and the majority destroyed???
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Post by cjones on Feb 26, 2018 8:50:50 GMT
Future recoveries look very bleak indeed... I was struck by this comment, as I see several other posters were. The elephant in the room, of course, is that this October will be five years since the last episodes recovered were announced. Since then, there's been nothing - from any source. As far as I can tell (and I'm no ME expert), barring unexpected discoveries of the 'found-in-some-random-person's-attic/shed/garage' variety, the most we can hope for is as follows: 1. A few (let's say anywhere between one and half a dozen) orphan episodes will trickle back over the next decade or two. We know there is at least a non-trivial chance of this because some of those who make it their business to find missing episodes have stated (on this forum or on Gally Base, I forget which) that they know for a fact that certain unnamed long-term film collectors have missing episodes and are sitting on them. I cannot think this means some SMOF has a huge bunch of MEs, Omnirumour-style; most probably we are looking at one or two here and there, which he/she/they is/are keeping to themselves. (Which is up to them.) I suppose it is not impossible that some collector has a whole serial, but the balance of probability is against it (AFAIK, no collector has ever returned an entire serial), so I very much doubt it. 2. Web Of Fear 3 turns up. Mr. Morris says he is hopeful, but as we know nothing about its current circumstances, we cannot make a guess as to how likely it is that it will be recovered. (We don't even know for sure that it still exists - only that it did when Mr. Morris visited Jos.) 3. Marco Polo turns up. For clarity's sake, I don't know anything here; I include this because the serial seems to be differentiated from the other missing ones because of the persistence with which its name was associated with two serials that subsequently turned up thanks to Mr. Morris (WoF and EoTW) back in 2013. And that's it. Option 1 is the only one I feel has more than a trivial chance of coming good. Even that is entirely dependent on whether or not such copies as do exist make their way safely into the hands of the Restoration Team/the BBC at the appropriate time. YMMV with option 2, depending on how much credence you put on Mr. Morris' attitude towards WoF 3's eventual recovery (my reading is that he is not lying, i.e. he believes what he says, but that in reality, if someone does have it they will not part with it). As regards option 3, it - along with every other rumour regarding Mr. Morris supposedly keeping back a serial or serials found on his travels - had some credence back in 2013, particularly if some episodes were damaged and needed time to be restored, but in 2018 it is fetching up against Occam's razor. Given that he has demonstrated a willingness to return missing episodes (and great big wodges of them at that), what reason would he have to hold on to more of them for so long? (I've heard it said that he doesn't want to jeopardise future recoveries, which makes sense if he still hasn't checked a few broadcasters, and was therefore entirely plausible a few years ago, but I can't believe the search is still going on today after almost a decade.) The only rationale left is that he is now hoarding them for his own use - in which case, don't call us, we'll call you. After all, Mr. Morris could have done that with EoTW and WoF, and didn't. So as far as I can see, he has nothing in hand, but is hopeful of getting one more. Certainly his 'the wind is blowing in the right direction' comment(s) were ill-advised, but considering the ease with which fandom can parse even sentences consisting of one word into 'he's found something!', he was in a no-win situation no matter what he said. Are other people actively searching? I suppose some might be, but as we don't know, we can't assess their chances of turning something up. So like I say, we're probably looking at the odd episode here and there in the coming years, if we're lucky. Everything else, as Arnold Rimmer would say, is poppycock. My two penn'orth.
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Post by Chris Wilkinson on Feb 26, 2018 9:09:54 GMT
I honestly believe the comment about The Tenth Planet #4 still being out there is seriously wishful thinking. When someone has recovered a batch of missing episodes and "something else" (that got swiped) I don't take what Phil says as seriously wishful thinking. Rather, serious, practical thinking. This is someone who has been out there to get the full picture of the bicycling-chain and probably a few surprises too (as with Sierra Leone). He knows well the score of unlikelihood of finding both The Tenth Planet and The Power of the Daleks, so it's interesting he mentioned both in the past as part of his recovery endeavours. Why say it? Not something one should mention lightly! So that gives me hope. Many films or TV episodes have been recovered where only one existing print of something is all that's left. These serials were only ever sold to three countries each - Australia (returned in 1975), New Zealand (confirmed it sent prints to Singapore in 1972) and Singapore (unknown, but likely returned in 1973/4 as the serials were removed from sales at that time). I reaffirm that this is seriously wishful thinking - the only hope being that the people who worked on Blue Peter snatched it for themselves when it was being edited. You can't just say that just because it's a recovery expert that says these things automatically means it's certainly true. He likely said it because it's one of the few serials with just one missing episode.
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Post by John Wall on Feb 26, 2018 10:01:26 GMT
I hope the pieces of the puzzle do eventually fall into place, and that the documentation for Singapore/Zambia still exists, but I would also say that we should be prepared for nothing much. Documents that are fifty years old in the hands of people who don't consider them of use are not likely to last that long. What exists today is but a fraction of a much more complete past. True, although Phil Morris came across years-old documentation that was still held by the Sierra Leone TV station. I didn’t say that.
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Post by John Wall on Feb 26, 2018 10:02:07 GMT
I honestly believe the comment about The Tenth Planet #4 still being out there is seriously wishful thinking. When someone has recovered a batch of missing episodes and "something else" (that got swiped) I don't take what Phil says as seriously wishful thinking. Rather, serious, practical thinking. This is someone who has been out there to get the full picture of the bicycling-chain and probably a few surprises too (as with Sierra Leone). He knows well the score of unlikelihood of finding both The Tenth Planet and The Power of the Daleks, so it's interesting he mentioned both in the past as part of his recovery endeavours. Why say it? Not something one should mention lightly! So that gives me hope. Many films or TV episodes have been recovered where only one existing print of something is all that's left. I didn’t say that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 10:15:58 GMT
Apologies, John, you didn't, I edited the page so the wrong person was attributed to the quotes. Blonde moment and deleted both now.
Anyway, am hoping for some feedback regarding my earlier qu about Tenth Planet # 1 - 3 film cans with what's on their labels. Hope someone on here is able to provide some insight...
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Post by John Wall on Feb 26, 2018 10:30:37 GMT
Future recoveries look very bleak indeed... I was struck by this comment, as I see several other posters were. The elephant in the room, of course, is that this October will be five years since the last episodes recovered were announced. Since then, there's been nothing - from any source. As far as I can tell (and I'm no ME expert), barring unexpected discoveries of the 'found-in-some-random-person's-attic/shed/garage' variety, the most we can hope for is as follows: 1. A few (let's say anywhere between one and half a dozen) orphan episodes will trickle back over the next decade or two. We know there is at least a non-trivial chance of this because some of those who make it their business to find missing episodes have stated (on this forum or on Gally Base, I forget which) that they know for a fact that certain unnamed long-term film collectors have missing episodes and are sitting on them. I cannot think this means some SMOF has a huge bunch of MEs, Omnirumour-style; most probably we are looking at one or two here and there, which he/she/they is/are keeping to themselves. (Which is up to them.) I suppose it is not impossible that some collector has a whole serial, but the balance of probability is against it (AFAIK, no collector has ever returned an entire serial), so I very much doubt it. 2. Web Of Fear 3 turns up. Mr. Morris says he is hopeful, but as we know nothing about its current circumstances, we cannot make a guess as to how likely it is that it will be recovered. (We don't even know for sure that it still exists - only that it did when Mr. Morris visited Jos.) 3. Marco Polo turns up. For clarity's sake, I don't know anything here; I include this because the serial seems to be differentiated from the other missing ones because of the persistence with which its name was associated with two serials that subsequently turned up thanks to Mr. Morris (WoF and EoTW) back in 2013. And that's it. Option 1 is the only one I feel has more than a trivial chance of coming good. Even that is entirely dependent on whether or not such copies as do exist make their way safely into the hands of the Restoration Team/the BBC at the appropriate time. YMMV with option 2, depending on how much credence you put on Mr. Morris' attitude towards WoF 3's eventual recovery (my reading is that he is not lying, i.e. he believes what he says, but that in reality, if someone does have it they will not part with it). As regards option 3, it - along with every other rumour regarding Mr. Morris supposedly keeping back a serial or serials found on his travels - had some credence back in 2013, particularly if some episodes were damaged and needed time to be restored, but in 2018 it is fetching up against Occam's razor. Given that he has demonstrated a willingness to return missing episodes (and great big wodges of them at that), what reason would he have to hold on to more of them for so long? (I've heard it said that he doesn't want to jeopardise future recoveries, which makes sense if he still hasn't checked a few broadcasters, and was therefore entirely plausible a few years ago, but I can't believe the search is still going on today after almost a decade.) The only rationale left is that he is now hoarding them for his own use - in which case, don't call us, we'll call you. After all, Mr. Morris could have done that with EoTW and WoF, and didn't. So as far as I can see, he has nothing in hand, but is hopeful of getting one more. Certainly his 'the wind is blowing in the right direction' comment(s) were ill-advised, but considering the ease with which fandom can parse even sentences consisting of one word into 'he's found something!', he was in a no-win situation no matter what he said. Are other people actively searching? I suppose some might be, but as we don't know, we can't assess their chances of turning something up. So like I say, we're probably looking at the odd episode here and there in the coming years, if we're lucky. Everything else, as Arnold Rimmer would say, is poppycock. My two penn'orth. I’ve been on this forum for a long time and I’ve NEVER seen “some of those who make it their business to find missing episodes have stated (on this forum or on Gally Base, I forget which) that they know for a fact that certain unnamed long-term film collectors have missing episodes and are sitting on them.” WITH RESPECT TO DR WHO.
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Post by cjones on Feb 26, 2018 11:02:39 GMT
Ah. Maybe I misconstrued. In which case the outlook is even bleaker.
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Post by John Wall on Feb 26, 2018 11:09:49 GMT
PV once said - before Enemy and Web - that he THOUGHT there MIGHT be up to MAYBE another half a dozen Dr Who missing episodes in private hands. This was, I recall, because of the odd episodes that had clearly “leaked” from those returned from Australia, etc.
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Post by cjones on Feb 26, 2018 11:23:41 GMT
*clenches teeth* That'll be what I read. I had it in my mind it was PV, but wasn't 100% sure, which is why I phrased the post more generally. Funny how the 'might's and the 'maybe's become more concrete with the passage of time...
In which case, it really is a matter of taking the emergence of orphan episodes on faith. It's the only show in town, WoF 3 aside.
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Post by John Wall on Feb 26, 2018 12:47:51 GMT
*clenches teeth* That'll be what I read. I had it in my mind it was PV, but wasn't 100% sure, which is why I phrased the post more generally. Funny how the 'might's and the 'maybe's become more concrete with the passage of time... In which case, it really is a matter of taking the emergence of orphan episodes on faith. It's the only show in town, WoF 3 aside. Possibly the only definite knowledge of missing episodes (not Dr Who) in private hands was the Private Video Library (PVL) - details of which can be found on the General forum. Prior to Enemy and Web we had Airlock and UM2. I think it’s fairly certain that they’d, somehow, “escaped” from a batch returned from Australia for destruction as the censor clips matched up. I think Evil 2, together with odd episodes of Faceless Ones and Wheel in Soace, etc might have come from a similar source. The question is how many prints survived like that and nobody really knows. The only other thing is that I’ve made the point several times that MEs are like Krynoid pods - they travel in pairs. This might suggest that whoever “acquired” these (probably in the 70s) had a bag, briefcase, satchel, etc that had space for only a couple of cans.
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Post by Natalie Sinead on Feb 26, 2018 13:21:22 GMT
Why did "The Final Test" survive at the ABC?
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Post by John Wall on Feb 26, 2018 13:37:23 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 23:53:30 GMT
Ah. Maybe I misconstrued. In which case the outlook is even bleaker. Not at all. The future is about as bleak as November 2013 was. "Expect the unexpected" we've been told by the man who gave us a huge indication (9 episodes) of there being more where that lot came from (obviously, lol). This man goes out to a region not previously traversed on foot by episode-hunters. He doesn't sit at home speculating what in all likelihood has happened to the Hong Kong, Zambia and Singapore etc. prints. Instead he goes out, putting his life in danger, to find out the hard truth, first hand. As he did with Sierra Leone. 5 years of no news is a good thing. Give me 5 more if it means more recovered episodes need frame-by-frame restoration and further loose ends need to be tied-up in terms of making up complete serials. I don't know where the word hoarding comes into this. Storing, more like, and storing safely away from grabbing hands (WOF3) and rumour-mongering (Bleeding Cool etc.). There's less evidence for nothing coming back than there is for some more missing Who actually coming back. Orphan episodes, the odd one now and then would be great. But here we are looking at a different sphere completely, based on the evidence of 9 recovered episodes from overseas, no less, and also that fans of all missing TV are going to be happy with the eventual outcome. I think I'm very happy so far. These episodes went out in huge quantities to the regions we know of, regions which he has searched. The episodes didn't go off to some unknown planet light years away with no hope of anyone ever getting to them. We were also told, if any can recall, that the next announcement from Phil will be non-Who related. So that is to come first before Who. So an even longer wait. So, meanwhile, let's hope then that some of those lost episodes of The Wednesday Play are going to be announced next?
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