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Post by Tony Walshaw on Oct 9, 2014 8:16:34 GMT
Yes, as a probably nervous new performer, with a rapidly ascending record and an unfamiliar backing band, it would be an awkward performance.
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Post by williammcgregor on Jun 10, 2015 19:30:11 GMT
Further to my Pete Townshend MU Interview from the Melody Maker dated 14th November 1970
2 weeks later the Melody Maker published 5 readers letters in reply to Pete's interview...
Townshend on pop and TV-readers reply
MM 28th Nov 1970
Rarely have I read an article like Pete Townshend's MM page. His latest two weeks ago was the best yet-it expresssed exactly views shared by my friends and myself. At last the great "progressive" and "underground" bubbles have been burst and figures as ridiculous as the suburban hippies in "Two Girls in Hampshire" are shown for what they are-long haired Tony Blackburn's. The sooner that more people adopt Pete's "in between" attitude the sooner we'll be rid of the ridiculous fanaticism with various cliques of the music business. It is rare that very popular rock musicians have the integrity to slate uncool "hippies." GEOFF BROWN, 9 Brancher Avenue,Prescott, Liverpool L35 8LS.
I must admit that Pete Townshend's apparent defence of the practice of "miming" to records surprised me,particularly since he wrote so enthusiastically of the late lamented Ready Steady Go. The sight of musicians pretending to play has always struck me as the height of the ridiculous. If, as appears to be the case,people prefer listening to the actual bit of plastic rather than flesh and blood musicians then why not just play the record? Surely someone can dance to it, or create a short piece of film to go with it. Anything to dispense with the ludicrous charade of drummers,guitarists,and singers bobbing up and down like puppets in a goldfish bowl. I like music, and I like to see musicians playing it,I am more than prepared to have all the bum notes,missed ones,balance and equipment faults that go with it. Those groups who use instruments and sound effects which are difficult to re-create on stage should make the best attempt they can with the resources available. If this sounds unduly harsh,remember that these gropus can use session musicians on television,but have to cope unaided with provincial venues as a matter of course. It is particularly ironic that it should be Pete Townshend who is championing this cause,since the memory of The Who's "live" appearances on RSG are among my most cherished memories. D.M.JONES,145 Elm Drive, Hove,Sussex.
Pete Townshend is quite right in pointing out the sheer impractibility of re-producing a commercial for TV. But,who is being fooled? Could the Who produce the content of a record by menas of a live performance? The solution to all problems is for TV shows to feature groups live;if the result is sub standard then this reflects on the capability of the group-listen to some of those "live" radio shots! For TV promotion of his latest record,Pete could quite easily book advertising time on the "other" channel,and mime to the record to his heart's content;just think he could get unlimited "live" plugs for as long as he likes-with no intervention from the Musicians Union. FREDDIE HARPER, 210 Willesden Lane,London, N.W.6
Congratulations to P.Townshend for voicing what many have only dared utter in sound proof egg-boxes until now; the abolition of live music! What better place to start than on TOTP,the most automaton programme on the automaton media. A truly progressive opinion! DEAN PRICE,St.Cath's College, Oxford.
Regarding Pete Townshend's revelations in MM about the trials and tribulations encountered in trying to reproduce group sounds and his complaint about "some of the new Musicians' Union rules" and "the Union and..." the older musicians,getting tougher": the solution is for the groups to form their own union, or, better still,join the Electrical Trades Union, the Boilermakers Union or the RSPCE (Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Eardrums.) K.P.GILL (The High Society Band) 84 Coal Hill Lane,Farsley,Pudsey,Yorks.
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Post by williammcgregor on Jun 10, 2015 21:59:33 GMT
Melody Maker 28th November 1970
MU threaten Drum battle
A third contestant, who threatens to deliver a knock-out blow,has entered the much-publicised drum contest be-tween Ginger Baker and Elvin Jones
It is the Musicians Union. A spokesman for the union told the MM on Monday that, as no exchange deal had been arranged prior to the "battle" it should not be staged. The contest is due to take place tomorrow (Friday) at the Polytechnic of central London in New Cavendish St.
A spokesman for the Robert Stigwood Organisation,which handles Ginger Baker and Airforce said "We have been on to the union three or four times. They said Elvin cannot play because he does not have a work permit."
An MU spokesman commented: "If this engagement were to take place,it would have to be under the normal exchange agreement as far as we are concerned. And there just was'nt the time for such an agreement to be set up.
"Elvin Jones appeared with his Quartet at the Ronnie Scott Club under the normal foreign exchange arrangement.
"But if this drum battle has been commercially advertised and people pay money to see it,then it would be subject to the usual agreement and Elvin Jones would have to have a work permit."
The MU understands that Elvin's work permit-from the Dept of Emplyment-expired on November 7th when his engagement at Ronnie Scott's ended.
Supposing the drum duel were staged as advertised? the MU added:"This would not do any good to the relationship between the agency involved and the union. More Important,it might harm the relationship between this union and the American Federation of Musicians.
"It could lead to a whole series of other things. If Elvin Jones can do one,then why should'nt Count Basie?
"There is no reason why such a drum battle should not take place;it is just that there was not sufficient time in this case. Eight weeks advance notice has to be given for such exchange performances."
If Elvin does play the gig tomorrow,would any future British appearances be jeopardised?
The Foreign Labour Section of the Department of Employment said: "As no application has been made we cannot discuss hypothetical cases."
MM 5th December 1970
Battle next February
Ginger Baker and Elvin Jones's drum battle due to be held on Friday last week was cancelled. This was because of the Musicians Union refusal to grant a work permit. Scheduled to be held at an Airforce appearance at London's Polytechnic,it will now be held next February. Robin Turner of the Robert Stigwood Organisation, told the MM: "We were prepared to go ahead without notifying the MU. There was'nt time to give eight weeks notice for a work permit. But as Elvin was involved and might have been banned from future visits,we felt it unfair to put the onus on him. "The Union were within their rights, but there should be facilities for dealing with cases where it is not possible to apply two monthsin advance. Elvin was willing to play for nothing and he would'nt have robbed any British musician of work."
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Post by John Green on Jun 10, 2015 22:51:37 GMT
For the record,as a kid and teenager,I was never aware of miming.And yes,I know that that doesn't sound too clever.
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Post by williammcgregor on Jun 11, 2015 6:21:18 GMT
For the record,as a kid and teenager,I was never aware of miming.And yes,I know that that doesn't sound too clever. I was the same John it never crossed my mind to think, hold on a minute they're miming! I just accepted things as they were, and to tell you the truth,I could'nt have cared less back then,in fact I'd probably have been annoyed if the Top of the Pops performance did'nt sound exactly like the record.
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Post by Richard Marple on Jun 11, 2015 12:02:27 GMT
I remember watching TOTP in the 1980s & my brother pointing out when acts were miming, normally a guitar not plugged in was a good clue.
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Post by robchapman on Jun 11, 2015 14:35:41 GMT
For anyone who's interested, we seem to be entering into an interesting new phase in the reshowings of TOTP, where electronic instruments are taking over and yet bands still feel duty bound to pretend they are playing actual guitars and drums (rather than the synthesized guitars and drums that are being used much of the time) For example recent 1980 TOTP showings of New Musik and OMD.
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Post by Richard Marple on Jun 11, 2015 17:27:15 GMT
According to TV Cream the TOTP shown tonight on BBC4 will be the last one made before the strike.
They aren't sure when the first one made after the strike will be shown, I'm guessing after a summer break.
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Post by Chris Barratt on Jun 11, 2015 20:43:24 GMT
People talk about miming on TOTP as if it's some kind of absurd relic of the 70s & 80s - yet if I'm unfortunate enough to see modern pop music on TV it's probably even worse now. What seemed to rear its ugly head in the late 90s and can be seen on the Xmas TOTP and all the variety shows, you'll can get an act performing a live or re-recorded vocal over their computer-generated record - with a bunch of stylised goons miming acoustic drums and guitar etc, complete with earnest muso expression on faces. Utterly absurd generic nonsence used on too many TV 'performances' of clearly electronic computer generated pop (that Carly Rae Jepsen "Call Me Maybe" atrocity being a stand-out example - she even had a personalised drum kit for some bozo to pretend to play)
Yet you take a look on almost any YouTube video of TOTP and there's some prannet going "the BBC made everyone lip sync, this show was fake" or somesuch other bollocks.
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Post by Dave Woods on Jun 11, 2015 22:16:23 GMT
These days people pay to watch most big pop acts miming (or breathing along) in arenas. In that context I guess anything goes for a TV performance. (Hey, Glastonbury soon. Let's watch a berk or two standing behind a desk twiddling pans on something that could conceivably be a mixing console while a tape plays for an hour. It's all right though: they've put funny hats on for the occasion.)
Having older siblings, I grew up knowing that the groups were miming on TOTP but only understanding why a bit later. It never bothered me. In fact, I'm more bothered when acts "protest" against having to mime by turning their guitars around the wrong way or whatever. We know you're miming you patronising arses - we know you don't sound that good live. If you're that bothered about it, why did you come on? Oh that's right, to make lots of money. So you want the exposure to make the money, but you want us to think you're sticking it to the man. Artistically compromised twonks.
I have no problem with music made on computers or using synths or whatever. I actually like a lot of eighties pop. But having one or two people banging away at keyboards while a singer mimes to a vocal really doesn't add anything to the "performance". And even when a bit of the vocal has been fed into a sampler and we have the pleasure of watching the singer trying to decide whether to mime to those bits or not, it's still meagre pickings for the viewer. That's why pop from the mid-to-late eighties onwards wasn't kind to TOTP: they were all Sleeperblokes. And of course that's why we got lots of pretty boys and girls and highly choreographed dance routines. And because you can't actually dance and sing at the same time (no really, Madonna, we know you can't) we now don't have concerts; we have shows. But while I've no objection to watching Kylie trying on a succession of costumes, it's records and music I like. And I can listen to those at home.
And... oh. Sorry. Was there a topic...?
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Kev Hunter
Member
The only difference between a rut and a groove is the depth
Posts: 608
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Post by Kev Hunter on Jun 12, 2015 14:32:58 GMT
As a kid / young teenager I was always far more disappointed to see bands miming on OGWT than on TOTP. After all, TOTP was frothier and mainly pop-orientated, and singles seemed to be about the artists to a greater extent - the appearance was the main thing. It was always great to see what Slade, the Sweet or T. Rex were decked out in on any particular week; I wasn't really expecting anything more than hearing their latest hit single with added visuals, and that's what I usually got. By comparison, to sit in front of the telly when OGWT was on was more of an event, something to be taken seriously - a chance to see proper rock music being performed. Even at the time, however, I felt cheated somehow, to see the Who, Wishbone Ash and countless others miming along (often quite poorly) with just a live vocal, and having seen repeated OGWT clips during the past decade or so shows just how obvious some of it was. Steppenwolf, for example - miming along (vocals as well) to the recording of "Born To Be Wild" that was already at least three or four years old at the time - what was that about? Why even bother to make an appearance? Of course there are notable exceptions (Edgar Winter Group doing "Frankenstein", Focus with the "Sylvia / Hocus Pocus" medley) that were really live and quite different to the records, and all the better for that, but on the whole the performances weren't that much more exciting than those on TOTP. And of course, sod's law dictated that the artists and music I disliked (acoustic and from the USA in general) were always bloody live and dull visually too.
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Post by markjhaley on Jun 13, 2015 7:43:16 GMT
Co-incidentally I discussed the Argent OGWT appearance with Jim and Bob at a Kinks convention last year. Jim told me it was very difficult to get a decent live sound in the studio the BBC used for OGWT in the early days of the programme. It was a small room and the sound would just bounce around off the walls. Hence using a recording. Bob feigned surprise... "We were miming?"
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Post by Richard Marple on Jun 13, 2015 17:57:11 GMT
IIRC the OGWT originally used a studio designed for in-vision presentation.
Sometimes they didn't bother with much of a set, & the set building markings could be seen on the wall.
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Post by John Green on Jun 13, 2015 19:38:24 GMT
For the record,as a kid and teenager,I was never aware of miming.And yes,I know that that doesn't sound too clever. I was the same John it never crossed my mind to think, hold on a minute they're miming! I just accepted things as they were, and to tell you the truth,I could'nt have cared less back then,in fact I'd probably have been annoyed if the Top of the Pops performance did'nt sound exactly like the record. I wonder how many people didn't audio-tape songs because they were unaware that they were hearing some new,never-to-be-repeated performances?
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Post by williammcgregor on Jun 13, 2015 19:53:15 GMT
I would say the vast majority John
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