Thames TV the first 3 years

[John Stewart Miller]

To start the ball rolling on this one - The opening night of Thames appears to be completely missing. For a period running from thereabouts up until 1971, with the exceptions of 'Two Ds and a dog' and 'elephants eggs in a rhubarb tree' the thames childrens TV archive is largely depleted. From then 71 - 72 the archive is generally, to my knowledge very comprehensive.

I only know of two items in existance exclusively in T-R form from this early Thames period. These are two Philip Elsmore links circa 1969, and 'do not adjust your stocking'. Of 'Ace of wands' I believe 4 or so oddment episodes from series 3 exist as T-Rs. What occured to me was that if the majority of Thames first three years had been actuallt transferred to Film, then lost, i.e. not junked it might explain a strange gap for an otherwise quite notably comprehensive archivist of its own product ?

[lfbarfe]

John said:

To start the ball rolling on this one - The opening night of Thames appears to be completely missing.

I'm sure that the opening lunch at Mansion House exists. I seem to recall seeing it or clips from it.

[Laurence Piper]

John said:

To start the ball rolling on this one - The opening night of Thames appears to be completely missing. For a period running from thereabouts up until 1971, with the exceptions of 'Two Ds and a dog' and 'elephants eggs in a rhubarb tree' the thames childrens TV archive is largely depleted. From then 71 - 72 the archive is generally, to my knowledge very comprehensive.

I only know of two items in existance exclusively in T-R form from this early Thames period. These are two Philip Elsmore links circa 1969, and 'do not adjust your stocking'. Of 'Ace of wands' I believe 4 or so oddment episodes from series 3 exist as T-Rs. What occured to me was that if the majority of Thames first three years had been actuallt transferred to Film, then lost, i.e. not junked it might explain a strange gap for an otherwise quite notably comprehensive archivist of its own product ?

When you say that the archive from '71 / '72 onwards is largely complete, I assume in the fields of drama / comedy / light entertainment? Other types of programming seem to still have huge gaps even after this time (e.g. Magpie, Today programme and many more).

It would certainly make a lot of sense if it was the case that t/rs were made of more stuff in the early period and subsequently lost / junked. Wonder if it's the case though? I'd like to think so as it would at least mean that the chances of more material could turn up. It's always puzzled me that certain very early Thames shows are totally complete whereas others aren't. For instance I wonder why they seem to have no episodes whatsoever of Sexton Blake and only one DNAYS. The same thing is the case with LWT to a slightly lesser degree as well (i.e. a generally very good archive but curiously very patchy in the '68-'70 era. You could say that was just due to the fact that it was early days of those companies and they hadn't formulated any proper archive plan as yet - but that didn't seem to be the case with the other big newcomer Yorkshire.

[andrew martin]

Yes but since they are separate organisations they could have acted in different ways regarding their archive. I don't suppose they were required to keep an archive, as the BBC wasn't at the time, so it could be up to the individuals running their film libraries/VT stores, or whatever form the chain of command regarding old material was in each case. Could easily be that once their exploitation arms had decided whether or not they had any interest in material, they saw no reason to hang on to it...

[Nosmo King]

1968-late 1969 material in b/w may have been considered lacking in future commercial value in comparison with the new colour programming - especially in genres considered less saleable but even in drama and comedy?

As to "Today" ... did any company keep regional news magazines in any remotely comprehensive way .. special events yes (rare in regional news!), film footage or an example or two here and there but I doubt e.g. YTV kept "Calendar". They probably weren't even taped as a programme entity.

As to LWT, their early days were pretty fraught! I don't think that archiving material was top of their consideration pre 1970 ... it seemed touch and go whether they'd still be around with all their ratings disasters, sackings of executives, press coverage, sniping by other ITV companies etc....

[wwwmissingepisodescom]

To the best of my knowledge companies such as Thames, London Weekend and Yorkshire either kept early material on VT or not at all, in other words material that was later wiped in the '70s was never telerecorded, unlike programmes of ATV, eg: Timeslip, all of which survive as B&W telerecordings except for the final episode of 'The Time of the Ice Box', which survives on original colour VT. This was last seen on ITV in 1974 in VT form, the B&W episodes commencing with the b&w version of the ATV ' In colour' ident I've personally not seen since 1974. The surviving telerecordings usually start with the ITC World Wide Distribution ident, presumably how ATV programmes were sold abroad. from Brian Renforth, Jarrow

[H Hartley]

As mentioned on another thread by PHNEIL, Thames were having problems with their archive even in the 1980s, in which transmission tapes had not been stored properly (due to naivety rather than nonchalance) with the result that some early prgrammes had been lost .
Apparently a 1988 edition of Wireless World Magazine has an article of Thames' proposed, long lasting archival format using MAC ( Multiplexed Analogue Components ) on 16mm film.
The system was abandoned of course when digital came along but it does show that Thames were at least concerned about their archive.

[John Stewart Miller]

I've been long wondering about the grey area of Thames enterprises and its black and white film stock copies. This is seldom if ever discussed, and I wondered if anyone knows anymore?

We know the BBC was researched and a lot of material discovered at BBC enterprises, but what of Thames enterprises? 'Timescreen' published listings which indicated that I think, an assortment of 4 episodes from 'Ace of wands' were held in 1986 at Thames enterprises. Surprisingly a story I heard that alleged 'Pardon my genie' series 1 had been wiped; but film copies were held at ITCs library (not Thames) turned out to be correct. Theres also that 'Do not adjust your set' Xmas special.

I'm surprised and pleased if the opening lunch has been kept - what was this shown on? I thought it had gone the same way as 'The Queen St gang', Thames' first childrens series (in colour).

Be interested if anyone can confirm, but wonder if my recollection of the Thames opening is right: After a long musical intro and onscreen card, this faded to black. That then faded up with Rediffusion presenter Philip Elsmore, returning to welcom viewers to the new ITV company, Thames. The format for the link was similar to Rediffusion, Elsmore at the desk in suit with onscreen name caption appearing below (electronic overlay). The main difference was where Rediffusion had a plain grey or grey curtain backdrop, Thames had a cut out scene of the city skyline in silhouette, featuring St Pauls running along the back. Elsmore then referred to seeing 'what they had lined up for you this afternoon. He then looked across and a caption card listing programme titles and times appeared. Can't recall, but I think the opening lunch may have been cut to from the presenter.

All I recall was the vast hall and tables being seen behind several celebrities standing on a balcony. These included Ronnie Corbett and Max Bygraves, who did a double / triple '3 Musketeers' style toast with raised wine glasses to Thames TV.

I think the first programme shown after this, with Philip Elsmore introducing was 'The Queen St gang'. Memory suggests a Friday afternoon. The title sequence involved the main character, played by actor Michael Gwynne, jumping up and down on a trampoline with the kids in the storyline. This was in slow motion with different coloured (shades of grey!) balloons floating off the top of the picture. Very 'trendy late 60s' title sequence. I can't recall it now but I think the music was interesting too memory suggests.

I think Elsmore alternated between advert breaks with the other main Rediffusion veteran at that point, Sheila Kennedy, with sideswept long fair hair and a breezy smile. I've not seen anything I can recall since the time of Sheila Kennedy!

[Deleted]

Thames was launched on a Tuesday, 30.07.68.

I read that C4's TV Heaven had clips of Thames' opening gala with Eamonn Andrews and Philip Elsmore (which was actually not it's purely first broadcast - the opening programme was broadcast in the early afternoon, the actual first broadcast of the day was a cricket match in mid-morning! ).

Philip Elsmore had previously been an announcer for ABC in Manchester and Birmingham - he wasn't from Rediffusion.

There's also a t/r of a David Hamilton link in July 1969 - one day before the moon landing (clip is on TV-ARK).

And regarding Thames enterprises - there was until recently a misunderstanding between the archives and sales department at Pearson regarding Father, Dear Father: Archives had only two down as existing, but Sales had them all as existing, which they were.

[John Stewart Miller]

Nosmo said:

1968-late 1969 material in b/w may have been considered lacking in future commercial value in comparison with the new colour programming - especially in genres considered less saleable but even in drama and comedy?

As to "Today" ... did any company keep regional news magazines in any remotely comprehensive way .. special events yes (rare in regional news!), film footage or an example or two here and there but I doubt e.g. YTV kept "Calendar". They probably weren't even taped as a programme entity.

As to LWT, their early days were pretty fraught! I don't think that archiving material was top of their consideration pre 1970 ... it seemed touch and go whether they'd still be around with all their ratings disasters, sackings of executives, press coverage, sniping by other ITV companies etc....

Good points here. Regarding; (on your first point); 'Queen Street Gang' however, I think this was made on colour VT. 'Tyrant King' (1968); also made by Thames; was according to my colleagues made on black and white film. The former hasn't survived, but the latter has.

Your comment on regional TV is I think an accurate assessment. My point about Thames; regarding Laurence Pipers comments on 'Magpie' and 'Today'; is that those items within their out put probably never existed largely in the first place due to live transmissions.

As far as I can gather to this day regional TV magazines are live, though nowadays recorded off air. Of course there may be exceptions.

I was intrigued by the existence of any B/W T- R form prints at Thames. However these are known to include the 1968 'Do not adjust' special, 4 oddments from 'Ace of wands' and 'Pardon my genie' series 1.

Most of the stuff seems to be held on cVT if at all. Yet theres evidence that other T - Rs of material were made by the B/W prints that exist.

[Laurence Piper]

Yes, others were made (presumably for sales purposes). One such item is an episode from the first Thames season of Armchair Theatre (1969), which exists as a b/w t/r. There were more too. I expect all the ITV companies made t/rs of shows for sales at that time.

[John Stewart Miller]

cosmo said:

Thames was launched on a Tuesday, 30.07.68.

I read that C4's TV Heaven had clips of Thames' opening gala with Eamonn Andrews and Philip Elsmore (which was actually not it's purely first broadcast - the opening programme was broadcast in the early afternoon, the actual first broadcast of the day was a cricket match in mid-morning! ;)).

Philip Elsmore had previously been an announcer for ABC in Manchester and Birmingham - he wasn't from Rediffusion.

There's also a t/r of a David Hamilton link in July 1969 - one day before the moon landing (clip is on TV-ARK).

And regarding Thames enterprises - there was until recently a misunderstanding between the archives and sales department at Pearson regarding Father, Dear Father: Archives had only two down as existing, but Sales had them all as existing, which they were.

Funny I'm sure I'd seen Elsmore presenting in the London area pre Thames - unless I'm confusing him with Bob Holness?

I still have the first segment of 'TV heaven 1968' on tape (minus 'the prisoner'). The segment I have (seems most of it) doesn't feature the opening lunch.

There seem to be a few conflicts of info from Thames on old holdings; Pam Lonsdale was apparently told Thames had archived the master VTs of 'Lion the witch and the wardrobe' which ABC sent them in 1978. In fact the tapes had been signed out (presumably for release - or possibly, a loan by technicians). In fact all thats turned up of that serial are the two episodes I think 'Kaleidoscope' traced; edited together telerecordings of episodes 1 and the penultimate.[

[Deleted]

Re: Elsmore. Well, probably he *did* work for A-R before Thames, it's just that in lists of A-R announcers he never appears, but then again, lists like those aren't necessarily 100% accurate.

Is anyone else old enought to remember Elsmore on Rediffusion?

One Thames announcer that had previously been on Rediffusion was John Benson.

[Laurence Piper]

Yes, I remember Rediffusion very well. Philip Elsmore never worked for them though. He was continuity announcer for ABC prior to Thames beginning (Thames took on wholesale a lot of ABC's continuity people including Elsmore, David Hamilton and Shiela Kennedy). Rediffusion's main announcers in the latter years were Redvers Kyle (who then went to Yorkshire to fulfill the same role, where he stayed till he retired) and Jon Kelley (who went on to acting, appearing in Crossroads and UFO after Rediffusion ended). Thames was pretty much ABC by a different name, having the majority share in the new company.