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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Dec 19, 2013 19:30:12 GMT
Not everything is a conspiracy............. Spoken like a ringleader of a plot! But seriously..... A hastily handwritten "5" could very easily be mistaken for a hastily handwritten "8". That's more than likely the case here. I wouldn't say anything is more or less likely the case when answering the question I proposed. It could've been a handwritten error, a type writer error, thrown out reels, misplaced reels, etc. There is little information to go on. All Ian's revealed was that he went looking for what he thought was 8 reels from Season 6 in Taiwan and found five of them. It is heartening though to know that he's still hunting after all this time. Since the 2011 returns we've certainly had a fair share of episodes show up! July 2011: Galaxy 4 3 and Underwater Menace 2August 2011: Romans 3March 2012: Reign of Terror 1April 2012: Web Planet 6April 2013: Rescue 1 and Enemy of the World 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6May 2013: Web of Fear 1, 2, 4, 5, 6July 2013: Unearthly Child 1 and Tenth Planet 2December 2013: Dominators 2, 3 along with Seeds of Death 2 and War Games 1, 2That's 24 episodes!
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Post by hankloebster on Dec 19, 2013 19:42:01 GMT
Spoken like a ringleader of a plot! But seriously..... A hastily handwritten "5" could very easily be mistaken for a hastily handwritten "8". That's more than likely the case here. Since the 2011 returns we've certainly had a fair share of episodes show up! July 2011: Galaxy 4 3 and Underwater Menace 2August 2011: Romans 3March 2012: Reign of Terror 1April 2012: Web Planet 6April 2013: Rescue 1 and Enemy of the World 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6May 2013: Web of Fear 1, 2, 4, 5, 6July 2013: Unearthly Child 1 and Tenth Planet 2December 2013: Dominators 2, 3 along with Seeds of Death 2 and War Games 1, 2That's 24 episodes! I had NO IDEA about all those duplicates being found!!! Is there some website which specifically details duplicate Doctor Who episode finds? Thanks!!!
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Dec 19, 2013 19:47:35 GMT
Since the 2011 returns we've certainly had a fair share of episodes show up! July 2011: Galaxy 4 3 and Underwater Menace 2August 2011: Romans 3March 2012: Reign of Terror 1April 2012: Web Planet 6April 2013: Rescue 1 and Enemy of the World 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6May 2013: Web of Fear 1, 2, 4, 5, 6July 2013: Unearthly Child 1 and Tenth Planet 2December 2013: Dominators 2, 3 along with Seeds of Death 2 and War Games 1, 2That's 24 episodes! I had NO IDEA about all those duplicates being found!!! Is there some website which specifically details duplicate Doctor Who episode finds? Thanks!!! Most of the duplicates we were made aware of, but not all of them are with the BBC. Reign of Terror, Web Planet, Rescue, Unearthly Child, and Tenth Planet were all spotted on e-bay. The Web Planet, Unearthly Child, and Tenth Planet appear to be dupe reels made in the 80s. Reign of Terror appeared to be a genuine suppressed field print from the 60s. I am uncertain what Paul Vanezis's opinion of the Rescue was but the ebay listing said it was obtained in the 80s. Irregardless, these were all sold to private collectors. The Romans episode was discovered by Paul when someone called them up. It also appears to be a dupe episode from the 80s. I do not know the fate of it either. Much of this can be gleamed from Brad's timeline at missingepisodes.blogspot.co.nz/p/timeline.html
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Post by Brad Phipps on Dec 19, 2013 20:40:48 GMT
This is bizarre. Sent to the armed forces in the 1960s? The first known sale for some of these stories wasn't until 1971!
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Post by David Cann on Dec 19, 2013 21:04:31 GMT
This is bizarre. Sent to the armed forces in the 1960s? The first known sale for some of these stories wasn't until 1971! It certainly makes for very interesting, and encouraging, reading. Splendid work by Ian here - one does wonder if 8 was meant to be 5 or if three episodes are still unaccounted for, but I'm sure Ian will pursue every avenue with regards to any potential further material The count of returned episodes in the past few years is also promising - though if some of the duplicates were 80s dupes then it's not quite as surprising I guess, as (correct me if I'm way off the mark here) they were probably made from copies of the episodes which stemmed from the archive films already known to exist, and were circulating in fan circles. Still, this is another great piece of news; congratulations again to Ian
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Post by Jon Preddle on Dec 19, 2013 21:17:29 GMT
This is bizarre. Sent to the armed forces in the 1960s? The first known sale for some of these stories wasn't until 1971! Given those stories didn't air until late 1968/early 1969, I think Levine is generalising when he says "the 1960s". It would be more like the early 1970s; the Vietnam war ended in 1975, so we've got a window of 1970 to 1975 for when the prints would have been shipped out. How this discovery chimes with the known mid-1975 returns from ABC, the airdates in Hong Kong, Singapore, Gibraltar, Nigeria and Zambia is anyone's guess.
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Dec 19, 2013 21:25:50 GMT
This is bizarre. Sent to the armed forces in the 1960s? The first known sale for some of these stories wasn't until 1971! Given those stories didn't air until late 1968/early 1969, I think Levine is generalising when he says "the 1960s". It would be more like the early 1970s; the Vietnam war ended in 1975, so we've got a window of 1970 to 1975 for when the prints would have been shipped out. How this discovery chimes with the known mid-1975 returns from ABC, the airdates in Hong Kong, Singapore, Gibraltar, Nigeria and Zambia is anyone's guess. If theorizing about a potential source, maybe we could eliminate Nigeria or Zambia as they were broadcasted in late 1975 into 1976.
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Simon Collis
Member
I have started to dream of lost things
Posts: 536
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Post by Simon Collis on Dec 19, 2013 21:36:27 GMT
This is bizarre. Sent to the armed forces in the 1960s? The first known sale for some of these stories wasn't until 1971! Given those stories didn't air until late 1968/early 1969, I think Levine is generalising when he says "the 1960s". It would be more like the early 1970s; the Vietnam war ended in 1975, so we've got a window of 1970 to 1975 for when the prints would have been shipped out. How this discovery chimes with the known mid-1975 returns from ABC, the airdates in Hong Kong, Singapore, Gibraltar, Nigeria and Zambia is anyone's guess. Well there was practically no British involvement in the Vietnam war - would the ship out of the episodes have been for US troops? Sorry, not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm just a bit confused* That said, BFBS stations abroad would be interesting - there were regular troops stationed at Hong Kong, Cyprus, West Germany, and ( according to Wikipedia) BFBS television started in West Germany in 1975 (the actual BFBS history page has disappeared but you can find it through the Wayback machine). The question of whether other allies' armed forces got prints of Who shipped to them is another question... * this is not an unusual state of affairs if you regularly follow my posts on this board...
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Post by Mark P on Dec 19, 2013 21:39:57 GMT
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Post by Robert Lia on Dec 19, 2013 21:48:22 GMT
Being that I am retired US Navy and having spent time in the Pacific Theater in the late 1980's I do know something of the history of AFRTS that I have shared with Jon Preddle before. The US Military in the 1970's was broadcasting TV in a number of South East Asian countrys in the mid 1970's. Japan had AFRTS as did South Korea, Thailand, Vietman and the Philippines. In fact AFRTS at one time also had a service in Australia and at the Naval Station Chrisetnchurch in New Zealand.
In fact AFRTS also had a service in Alaska and the Carribian back in the day. For Thailand the broadcasts would have come from US Air Force bases whihc were closed in the 1970's. For Vietman they would have been broadcasts form Siagon in the former Capitol of South Vietnam as well as the US Air Force base in Danang and the US Naval Station at Cam Ron Bay bolth of which were taken over by the Soviet Union after South Vietman fell in 1975.
For the Philippines black and white TV was the norm in the early 1970's. There was a major station of Far East Netork - Philippines at Clark AB and a repeater station at Naval Station Subic Bay. FEN-P was violently forced off the air never to return when Mt. Pinatubo exploded in June 1991 causing a mass evactuation of bolth Clark AB and US Naval Station Subic Bay to include Naval Air Station Cubi Point. Aircraft carriers Abraham Lincoln and Midway were divreted to Cubi Point to evacuate all civillians from the US Facilities. Clark was then officaly abandoned and looted. Clean up began at Naval Station Subic Bay and Naval Air Station Cubi Point in early July 1991. In January 1992 as the US bases treaty was not renewed. Commander US Naval Forces Philipines ordered an orderely shut down of all remaining US facilities in the Philippines. By November 1992 the last US warship sailed out of Subic Bay and the last plane out of NAS Cubi Point left for a flight to NAS Agana Guam.
Now one thing I did notice during my time at Subic Bay fro 1987-90 was that there was a big film storage builing on board the Naval Station side of the base by the waterfont. Never got to go inside but it was an old building that films were kept in and had been there since the 1960's. Might have been where films were kept in the days before microwave relays was introducxed between Clark and Subic Bay.
For Taiwan the US Navy had a large base as did the US Airforce, these were closed when the US Goverment recognized Red China in 1976. All US military forcfes were pulled out of Taiwan at the time and the AFRTS station as Jon Preddle has reported was turned over to the American univeristy. This station was not shut down but handed over intact.
Robert Lia US Navy Retired 1986-2006 Naval Air Station Cubi Point , Philippines 1987-90, 91
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Post by Simon Jailler on Dec 19, 2013 21:50:10 GMT
Given those stories didn't air until late 1968/early 1969, I think Levine is generalising when he says "the 1960s". It would be more like the early 1970s; the Vietnam war ended in 1975, so we've got a window of 1970 to 1975 for when the prints would have been shipped out. How this discovery chimes with the known mid-1975 returns from ABC, the airdates in Hong Kong, Singapore, Gibraltar, Nigeria and Zambia is anyone's guess. Well there was practically no British involvement in the Vietnam war - would the ship out of the episodes have been for US troops? Sorry, not trying to be sarcastic here, I'm just a bit confused* That said, BFBS stations abroad would be interesting - there were regular troops stationed at Hong Kong, Cyprus, West Germany, and ( according to Wikipedia) BFBS television started in West Germany in 1975 (the actual BFBS history page has disappeared but you can find it through the Wayback machine). The question of whether other allies' armed forces got prints of Who shipped to them is another question... * this is not an unusual state of affairs if you regularly follow my posts on this board...Someone posted earlier that the link could be via Australia. Australian troops served in Vietnam.
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Post by Marty Schultz on Dec 19, 2013 22:11:06 GMT
I would also suggest Australia. Anyway - well done Ian. Great work and thanks. More pieces of the puzzle.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Dec 19, 2013 22:16:38 GMT
Of course the eps didn't need to be transmitted via TV relay. Being 16mm film prints, they could just as easily have been projected in a theatre set-up.
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Post by Robert Lia on Dec 19, 2013 22:26:22 GMT
For Vietnam which was a war zone that might be possible. How ever I have seen pictures of military personal in Vietman watching TV broadcasts of AFRTS Vietman so I think that theory does not apply in this case. For the Philippines back then the prints after being broadcast at Clark AB would have been transported to Naval Station Subic bay as it was only a 2 hour drive.
God I always wondered what was stored in the film storage unit at Naval Station Subic Bay and where it went after base closure assuming that it was not destroyed with many of the other building on the Naval Station water front.
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Post by Marty Schultz on Dec 19, 2013 22:27:56 GMT
Of course the eps didn't need to be transmitted via TV relay. Being 16mm film prints, they could just as easily have been projected in a theatre set-up. That's what I kind of assumed. I assume everyones next question would be - why not a full story run? Where are the others? Vietnam - radio station? - Does Robin Williams have them? LOL
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