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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 10:31:45 GMT
Quite. We urgently need to take the ultimate decision of whether to wipe or not out of the hands of people looking to purely make money from programme libraries. There should be an automatic referral system in place so that if the rights holders no longer need the material, it's handed to a body whose primary purpose is to preserve for posterity and as social /cultural history (which is what TV is, whether it's recognised across the board or not). The TV archives have been so badly manhandled and shabbily disregarded over the years that - to make an analogy - if you were talking about the same level of mistreatment towards a person, it would be considered to be abuse.
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Post by Richard Marple on Nov 17, 2013 10:38:08 GMT
I did read somewhere that some episodes of Sapphire & Steel only survive as the tapes were used as a door stop in the Central tape library!
I don't know how true that is!
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Post by Ken Griffin on Nov 17, 2013 13:10:51 GMT
We urgently need to take the ultimate decision of whether to wipe or not out of the hands of people looking to purely make money from programme libraries. Playing the devil's advocate here, how do you propose funding such a body?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 14:47:19 GMT
Well, the BFI does it already - just not very well or vociferously as far as TV is concerned. But if horrifying losses aren't to carry on, it needs to be sorted out as a matter of urgency. TV suffers far more in relation to archiving than most other media even now and if we talk about preserving other parts of our culture, then it deserves equal time. A simple default obligation that anything no longer required by the rights holder for profit-making must be passed on as heritage to a body like the BFI or a regional archive (e.g. Wessex). This obviously didn't happen in the case of Freewheelers and the previous owners simply played god with the recordings without telling anyone (and I firmly believe that, something having been broadcast, therefore belongs to the nation). With digital storage taking up less and less physical space, there really is no excuse.
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Post by williammcgregor on Nov 20, 2013 20:38:02 GMT
I know absolutely nothing about this programme but I thought someone might like this, it's from the TV Times 1/9/73
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Post by markboulton on Nov 22, 2013 5:37:23 GMT
Well, the BFI does it already - just not very well or vociferously as far as TV is concerned. But if horrifying losses aren't to carry on, it needs to be sorted out as a matter of urgency. TV suffers far more in relation to archiving than most other media even now and if we talk about preserving other parts of our culture, then it deserves equal time. A simple default obligation that anything no longer required by the rights holder for profit-making must be passed on as heritage to a body like the BFI or a regional archive (e.g. Wessex). This obviously didn't happen in the case of Freewheelers and the previous owners simply played god with the recordings without telling anyone (and I firmly believe that, something having been broadcast, therefore belongs to the nation). With digital storage taking up less and less physical space, there really is no excuse. I agree Laurence. Dick Fiddy does his very best, but with all but the little finger of his left hand tied behind his back, with the best will in the world it's not enough (and he has acknowledged that himself on many occasions). If only the BFI could be renamed the BFTI (British Film & Television Institute) and given a cultural shake-up to rid it of 'celluloid snobbery', it would be expected to find funding from wherever it could, like it does for film. Most people in the BFI would argue, I'm sure, that even if a TV programme originated on film or was archived on film, it was not a 'cinematic entity', having not been conceived, produced and shot as such. However one could also argue that it should be irrelevant, in the case of a recorded audio-visual entertainment product, to what 'school' of production values those involved followed. After all, a video artist, if doing something avant-garde on television, could be dismissed by that token, yet if the same video artist did it for a gallery exhibition, it would be regarded as something like 'cinéma concrête'. The problem is, a dozen or so of us can't fight this one - the whole cinema vs. television divide is engrained into thousands of scholars, critics, commissioning executives, etc. It's a shame television programmes can't be classified as 'publications' so that one copy gets deposited with the British Library. Of course, the recordings wouldn't necessarily have to be housed at the BL itself - they could be housed somewhere else - such as the BFI perhaps(!) on their behalf but under BL funding. There are so many possible solutions, if only the will existed. But there are too many people who are keen to find the first ideological argument to debunk the apparent merit in suggesting it's taken seriously. If people were to be as sniffy over cinema, to say "it was just meant to be cheap entertainment" and dismiss it, even if some of that cheap entertainment was either written, directed by or starred someone who, only in later years, turned out to be a master of their craft, they'd say, "but so what, those were the exceptions." Yet old cinema of any quality (technically or artistically) is held up like a golden talisman.
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Post by markboulton on Nov 22, 2013 5:46:16 GMT
I did read somewhere that some episodes of Sapphire & Steel only survive as the tapes were used as a door stop in the Central tape library! I don't know how true that is! I can well believe it, but I can also well believe that it was NOT down to callous disregard as is the common assumption. Imagine this - the Central Tape Library contains many shelves - on each set of shelves, programmes that are thought to be the most 'frequently requested' in terms of transmission or duplication for home video masters, etc. are put closest to the gangway. Imagine that, at the near end of the room, recent productions are housed and at the other, older ATV productions. It doesn't take a great leap of imagination to suppose that, at the far end of the room, at one time a door had to be propped open, and of course the most convenient thing to use to do that was to take one of those conveniently flat-ended and heavy tape boxes on the shelves. Preferably one from the end of a shelf rather than taking one from further down for no good reason. So - what happens? A popular ATV production, housed at the front end of the corner shelf is withdrawn to temporarily hold the door open. A few minutes later, someone happens to be led in through that door and they happen to notice what's written on the tape box label, the memory sticks in their mind and they extrapolate this idea into their head that for some reason Sapphire & Steel invoked callous disregard amongst those working in the Tape Library. For the person who saw it there, it would indeed stick out in their memory. The damn thing was probably put back 5 minutes later, but the memory is there, etched as indelibly as a wing mirror scraping the side of an adjacent car! I know it's been said that those who talked to Central employees got the impression that "old ATV stuff" was seen as of secondary importance, but I don't think that meant anybody saw any VT case with an ATV logo on it as skip-fodder (unless instructed from above, most likely against their better judgement). Or so I'd like to think. Perhaps I'm just deluded...
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Post by markboulton on Nov 22, 2013 6:03:47 GMT
Actually no, one episode from series 7 is currently missing, and several episodes from series 8 are currently missing. This is preventing the release of both series. Lostshows is correct. Only off-airs from the 1980s Childrens' Channel repeats exist for these lost epsidoes, plus some film inserts at Wessex. The 2" masters were lost some time in the past 15 years or so. There is a possibility that Simply/Renown may issues a dvd release of series 7 & 8 using the existing masters plus off-airs cleaned-up. Network have done this before, so it's do-able. Drat.Oh,well,we abolished the "shoot the messenger" policy last year,so you're safe enough! Seriously,isn't the situation with the master-tapes awful? Hopefully,they'll turn up... I said it a few years ago on Missing Episodes, and I'll say it again - I have a very simple theory to how archivists used to think... "We have a programme here that is going to be transmitted, and it's on an old format. I know, we'll transfer it to a new format." "Great idea George." "Tell you what, since whenever this is going to be transmitted, it will have to be on the new format, let's make it the new master." "Great idea George." "Then we can throw the old one away." "Great idea George." "OK - here's our brand new master. Be a good chap and make up a tape label for me - make sure it says MASTER on it in red capitals please?" "Sure thing George." "Oh, and by the way, enter the tape number on the inventory system so in the future people will know this is now the master." "OK George." Now, let's fast forward a few years... a warehouse full of tapes, being surveyed by two entirely different people on a purely commercial mission: "Good grief, what are we going to do with this lot Olli?" "Right, what you need to do Yim, it's like Hugh was saying in the meeting the other day - we have to sort out this mess we've been left with here." "OK - how do we do that?" "It's quite simple Yim. Move all the dupe tapes to the skipping area." "But Olli, how will I know which ones are dupes?" "Well, " (Olli getting frustrated with all the questions and trying to think of some easy to explain, broad-brush criteria that should be 'close enough'), "anything from 1983 onwards, if it's one of those smaller tapes, it's a dupe. The master will be on one of those bigger tapes." Yim starts the process, and after 4 hours or so can't help but notice that many of these apparently 'dupe' tapes have labels on them saying "Transfer of 2" Tape Number blahblahblah - NEW MASTER" or "Transfer from TK Number blahblahblah - USE FOR TX". "Olli," Yim tentatively calls out, "I think these tapes actually should be kept." "Hmmmmppphhh.. why in God's name are you saying that? We're supposed to be clearing this place. We're not f**king squirrels you know! If you had your way we'd just keep everything! We need to make some progress with this. It's OK to junk them, OK? You're making a problem where there isn't one." So Yim does as he's told. Olli couldn't care less or even will have considered that perhaps, just perhaps, a few years earlier, a few people in the Tape Library had been busy making new masters of ex-2" and ex-T/R material with a view to making things easier for the next generation? Oh, but as luck would have it, some of those programmes get requested by small satellite channels. "There you go Yim, send 'em those", Olli says. "They can hang on to them if they want to show them again in the future. Gets them off our hands and anyway, I'm sure the original will turn up one day. That's what you don't understand Yim - they kept EVERYTHING in those days." "Oh really?" Yim thinks to himself.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2013 10:24:06 GMT
The problem is, a dozen or so of us can't fight this one - the whole cinema vs. television divide is engrained into thousands of scholars, critics, commissioning executives, etc. There are so many possible solutions, if only the will existed. But there are too many people who are keen to find the first ideological argument to debunk the apparent merit in suggesting it's taken seriously. Quite. The two quotes above seem particularly to hit the root of the problem though. We're having to fight decades of prejudice, lack of perception, an old school hierarchy of opinions and practices but also - crucially - the sheer will to do something about this rotten situation that we as advocates of the medium have to continually endure. Too many apologists are still out there and prepared to carry on excusing past bad practice (and in doing so, allowing it to continue). So yet again we have to ask the question: "who will speak up for television?"
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Post by George D on Nov 22, 2013 13:49:40 GMT
I agree that they should have a better conservation setup for vintage tv.
I also feel that as a back up, more should be out on dvd. When its out on dvd, at least there is a lower quality dvd in existance.
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Post by David King on Dec 4, 2013 16:14:38 GMT
For those that are interested, here's a brief history of the tape movements for the consignment containing "Freewheelers" series VI, VII and VIII.
Back in 2001, ITV Meridian bought the part of the Southern archive from the, then Southern Star, that was deemed as "local" programmes, This mainly consisted of film and 2 inch tape of the "Southern Report" documentaries and several other programmes, now stored at the Wessex Film and Sound Archive. This did not include "Freewheelers" or, for that matter, "Out of Town" which Southern Star decided to keep.
A process of transfer from 2 inch Quad to Digibeta then started of this local programming. Shortly after though, towards the end of 2001, another agreement was hatched whereby most of the remainder of the Southern tape archive would be stored at ITV Meridian, Northam and transferred to Digibeta over time with the rights still staying with Southern Star.
Both the above tape consignments were stored together but apart from a list of the local material that should have been there, there was no real inventory of that or the "new" arrivals. I'm not aware that Library services, at the time, did an inventory and transfers to Digibeta were done on a series-by-series basis, as and when they were "discovered" in the mass of tapes randomly shelved in the archive. "Freewheelers" and "Out of Town" should have been with the second batch of tapes to arrive. The remaining "Out of Town" programmes were transferred in the summer of 2002 and "Freewheelers" series VI was transferred in the summer and autumn of 2003. After that other programmes continued to be transferred rather than go on and try and do series VII and VIII.
By mid 2004, the "writing was on the wall" for the Northam studio site but transfers still continued. By that time, having had enough of the random nature of discovering what lay in the archive, a colleague and I spent a weekend listing all the remaining 2 inch tapes that were there. It was at this point it became apparent to us that series VII of "Freewheelers" had episode 4 missing and series VIII, 11 episodes missing. This was pointed out to Library services but, whether it got fed back to Southern Star, I'm not sure. If it did, it might not have featured highly on their radar, at the time.
During the decommissioning of the Northam studios, the second batch of tapes was sent to ITV Global House, London, thereafter to ITV Leeds, back to Southern Star/ Endemol with the children's' drama and comedy then going to Renown.
So, as far as the missing "Freewheelers" episodes are concerned, it appears they went astray before their arrival at ITV Meridian in 2001 and not with any later tape movements. It was just that no one realised it at that point. It's quite possible, if not likely, that there were some tape movements prior to 2001 and the episodes were left behind somewhere or got mixed up in another collection. It appears that the current holding is all that could be found by Endemol at the time of sale to Renown.
So, rather than having any evidence of them being erased or destroyed, the missing 2 inch masters are probably still out there waiting to be found.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2013 16:37:34 GMT
Thanks for that, David. There's some degree of hope then.
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Post by Mike Womersley on Dec 5, 2013 11:58:12 GMT
I did not realise that Renown did not have series 7 & 8 until these recent post’s. I have now sent to Wessex 2 x DVD’s containing what look like off air recordings with a burned in TCC in top right. I presume they were transmitted via a satellite channel
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2013 12:41:28 GMT
Yes, they were repeated several times on The Children's Channel (around 1989 / 90), Mike. Series 6 as well.
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Post by Ian Wegg on Jun 16, 2015 13:40:38 GMT
I will try and sort out what appears to be missing information in the Wessex Archive lists. As far as I am concerned they had all the important inserts of all 8 series but for some reason my original lists and theirs do not confirm this. Thanks Mike. So you have inserts for all the series - that is great great news. I'd love to see the series 5 Thruxton scenes. The online catalogue - calm.hants.gov.uk/Overview.aspx?s=av763 - now includes a lot more Freewheelers than it did 19 months ago which I take to be the full collection that Mike Womersley has lodged there. This means that you can now order any of them up on DVD from the archive and view them in the Records Office's single A/V booth (if it's free). It took me a while longer than expected but I finally managed to visit Wessex yesterday. The series 5 film inserts are really good, in particular the opening episode involving Lotus 59 Formula 3 cars in action at Thruxton. Scenes that are familiar from the Time Screen article include Mike and Max throwing milk churns in the path of Ryan and Burke (driving a very nice Citroen DS decapotable) and being buried alive in the foundations of the M3. Having escaped that and then, inevitably, being recaptured by the bad guys, Mike and Max are unexpectedly let free in the countryside - only to find it is the lion enclosure at Longleat. I took the opportunity while there to browse the series 1 inserts. As we know, series 1 exists as a telerecording in fairly bad condition but the film inserts are in a much better state. We owe a great debt to Mike W. for saving the material and lodging it at Wessex, its such a pity it can't be made commercially available. ~iw
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