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Post by Jon Preddle on Oct 17, 2021 3:40:14 GMT
As an aside 16mm film prints (possibly 35 mm ) of the colour Avengers were shown in NZ cinemas in the 1960s at the same time the black and white ones were been shown on TV .I have posters for them and they are widely advertised in newspapers so it has precedent elsewhere in the world .as John Wall points on material shot on film possibly has a greater chance of been used this way ...also possible unique to NZ is the attraction was that they were in colour rather than the black and white TV screenings . (Although most NZ cinemas were 35mm they also had 16mm projectors for cine adverts and old projectionist's I have talked to think the avengers were sourced as 16mm....defiantly distributed through the Kerridge Odeon chain I have the poster for the NZ cinematic issue of "Return of the Cybernauts". It was a special distribution release through a NZ company called Photographic Wholesalers Ltd, who were a subsidiary of an Australian company. They traded here as "Sixteen Millimetre" - which indicates that's the film gauge they supplied. |
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 17, 2021 10:45:41 GMT
As an aside 16mm film prints (possibly 35 mm ) of the colour Avengers were shown in NZ cinemas in the 1960s at the same time the black and white ones were been shown on TV .I have posters for them and they are widely advertised in newspapers so it has precedent elsewhere in the world .as John Wall points on material shot on film possibly has a greater chance of been used this way ...also possible unique to NZ is the attraction was that they were in colour rather than the black and white TV screenings . (Although most NZ cinemas were 35mm they also had 16mm projectors for cine adverts and old projectionist's I have talked to think the avengers were sourced as 16mm....defiantly distributed through the Kerridge Odeon chain I have the poster for the NZ cinematic issue of "Return of the Cybernauts". It was a special distribution release through a NZ company called Photographic Wholesalers Ltd, who were a subsidiary of an Australian company. They traded here as "Sixteen Millimetre" - which indicates that's the film gauge they supplied. Cool poster! I’m dead jealous! |
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 17, 2021 10:57:55 GMT
John, I have read your reply but I still feel that more credence should be given to first hand accounts of things outside of the widely distributed material being shown until we can prove otherwise. The danger as I see it is by always explaining away these sort of reports away as “the memory cheats” while quite possibly being correct runs the risk of ignoring potential leads. I think we will probably have to agree to differ on this, after all it would be a boring old world if we agreed on everything and sadly this has become a circular argument. Perhaps finding a stock list or available titles list from one of these long gone 16mm rental stores would at least give us some idea but where would you start?
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Post by John Wall on Oct 17, 2021 11:38:58 GMT
John, I have read your reply but I still feel that more credence should be given to first hand accounts of things outside of the widely distributed material being shown until we can prove otherwise. The danger as I see it is by always explaining away these sort of reports away as “the memory cheats” while quite possibly being correct runs the risk of ignoring potential leads. I think we will probably have to agree to differ on this, after all it would be a boring old world if we agreed on everything and sadly this has become a circular argument. Perhaps finding a stock list or available titles list from one of these long gone 16mm rental stores would at least give us some idea but where would you start? By all means follow up anything you want. However, based on what we’ve had the balance of probabilities has to be that “first hand reports” are more than likely to be wrong. You’ve mixed up emails and when they’ve been quoted they’ve got the names of shows wrong and made claims that just don’t add up. There’s close to zero chance that Fawlty Towers was available to rent on 16mm before nationwide SA TV started at the beginning of 1976. The fundamental problem is that most people don’t know the difference between a film series and a video series. There’s little difficulty in contemplating almost any of the ITC film series being seen/rented on 16mm in SA before TV started. But a video series has to be telerecorded which means getting access to the 2” tape and the equipment to make a telerecording. Prints were struck as necessary and sent to broadcasters for use and often forwarding to other broadcasters. It’s not impossible that someone got hold of one or more telerecordings and made illicit copies but if it happened it would be a very tiny percentage. When the difference between video and film is unknown to at least 99.9% of people it’s easy to lump “British TV” - both film and video - together as having been seen “before TV started” and that’s obviously what’s happened. I have a recollection of PM finding loads of 16mm prints of US film series in various places - they were clearly turned out like shelling peas. |
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Post by markdixon on Oct 17, 2021 12:47:34 GMT
I’ve just finished reading ‘A Thousand Cuts’ by Dennis Bartok and Jeff Joseph. It’s a book about film collectors and film dealers. There are a couple of sections that mention the illegal film trade in South Africa in the early 1970s. Dupes of Hollywood films and US TV series such as ‘The Mod Squad’ were smuggled into South Africa directly from the USA. The book is written from an American perspective so there’s no mention of British television.
Earlier in this thread, there’s a mention of someone seeing episodes of ‘The Avengers’ and ITC series such as ‘The Saint’ in South Africa before 1975. Could these have been pirated syndication prints that had arrived directly from the USA?
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Post by John Wall on Oct 17, 2021 14:31:56 GMT
I’ve just finished reading ‘A Thousand Cuts’ by Dennis Bartok and Jeff Joseph. It’s a book about film collectors and film dealers. There are a couple of sections that mention the illegal film trade in South Africa in the early 1970s. Dupes of Hollywood films and US TV series such as ‘The Mod Squad’ were smuggled into South Africa directly from the USA. The book is written from an American perspective so there’s no mention of British television. Earlier in this thread, there’s a mention of someone seeing episodes of ‘The Avengers’ and ITC series such as ‘The Saint’ in South Africa before 1975. Could these have been pirated syndication prints that had arrived directly from the USA? It’s certainly possible but also worth noting that you’re after loadsa prints. So if you get a print - a positive - making a negative then gives you the ability to turn out more prints like a sausage machine. All you need to do is “borrow” a print long enough to make a negative which you then send to South Africa. In that case it’s pretty well evidence free as there are no missing prints. Another factor - besides the easier technical aspect - that makes film series (of any origin) more likely to be seen is the system of payments to artistes, etc. With most video series, e.g., DW, there was a payment plus royalties for overseas sales. With film series there was usually a single - but larger - payment and no royalties. That’s one of the reasons why things like DW stopped being sold abroad after a while - everything would have had to have been renegotiated. Contemplate, say, a video series (e.g., Fawlty Towers) being available illicitly for rent in South Africa. All those involved would be missing out on payments and would, no doubt, be rattling Equity’s cage who’d be harassing Auntie. The situation with (almost any) film series is that it’s only whoever owns the rights that’s losing out. They’ve probably made most of their money from the US plus legitimate sales elsewhere. They can possibly contemplate legal action in SA or they ignore it - the latter looks like what happens. |
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 17, 2021 18:51:32 GMT
I think the SA Courts would have laughed any legal challenge out at the time because of the isolation & cultural boycott. Why cooperate with countries trying to isolate you?
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Post by John Wall on Oct 17, 2021 19:16:17 GMT
I think the SA Courts would have laughed any legal challenge out at the time because of the isolation & cultural boycott. Why cooperate with countries trying to isolate you? I think that’s almost certainly correct but this started me thinking. As far as I know there hasn’t been a confirmed illicit foreign broadcast of BBC material - I’m thinking of things like DW - although all sorts of things made it to SA. I believe that this is largely due to the different philosophies at places like the BBC and ITC (which followed a US approach). The BBC primarily made things for UK consumption with overseas sales as a bonus. Consequently, programmes were usually made on VT with telerecordings and royalties for overseas sales. The likes of ITC primarily made things for an international (including the UK) audience so used film with a higher payment and no royalties. I suggest that this made Auntie more careful about controlling prints as they needed to ensure that royalties were paid. |
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Post by brianfretwell on Oct 23, 2021 9:16:28 GMT
But the BBC did sometimes ask for prints to be destroyed not returned after use. I think it is those "Missing presumes destroyed" prints that are what people are talking about, reported destroyed but possibly sold to SA instead.
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Post by John Wall on Oct 23, 2021 13:00:14 GMT
But the BBC did sometimes ask for prints to be destroyed not returned after use. I think it is those "Missing presumes destroyed" prints that are what people are talking about, reported destroyed but possibly sold to SA instead. I doubt any TV station would be involved in selling prints like that. It was only when the rights ran out and/or b&w was ceasing to be attractive that it looks like things were destroyed. |
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 23, 2021 18:49:32 GMT
But the BBC did sometimes ask for prints to be destroyed not returned after use. I think it is those "Missing presumes destroyed" prints that are what people are talking about, reported destroyed but possibly sold to SA instead. I doubt any TV station would be involved in selling prints like that. It was only when the rights ran out and/or b&w was ceasing to be attractive that it looks like things were destroyed. Having said that, and I agree that it’s always a good idea to think the best of people, other factors like poverty, siege mentality and economic failure can make having a moral compass an expensive luxury. (Philip Morris explanation of the disappearance of Web 3 is a possible case in point). Sanctions busting was an art form in Rhodesia in the late 60’s / 70’s as was getting around the cultural and sporting boycott in South Africa. Applying sanctions & boycotts doesn’t make the recipient countries cooperate, human nature suggests exactly the opposite. Mozambique and Zambia, were both bordering states to Rhodesia, in severe economic difficulty themselves and although strongly opposed to the governments in Pretoria and Salisbury traded quietly in the background with both countries (even at the same time as allowing the insurgents entering Rhodesia to operate out of their countries), and COULD have facilitated this sort of activity. I have absolutely no evidence that this happened, however people I have spoken to over the years certainly suggest that it did and I know other folks on the forum have had similar conversations as shown in the Evil of the Daleks thread. |
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Post by John Wall on Oct 23, 2021 21:59:13 GMT
I doubt any TV station would be involved in selling prints like that. It was only when the rights ran out and/or b&w was ceasing to be attractive that it looks like things were destroyed. Having said that, and I agree that it’s always a good idea to think the best of people, other factors like poverty, siege mentality and economic failure can make having a moral compass an expensive luxury. (Philip Morris explanation of the disappearance of Web 3 is a possible case in point). Sanctions busting was an art form in Rhodesia in the late 60’s / 70’s as was getting around the cultural and sporting boycott in South Africa. Applying sanctions & boycotts doesn’t make the recipient countries cooperate, human nature suggests exactly the opposite. Mozambique and Zambia, were both bordering states to Rhodesia, in severe economic difficulty themselves and although strongly opposed to the governments in Pretoria and Salisbury traded quietly in the background with both countries (even at the same time as allowing the insurgents entering Rhodesia to operate out of their countries), and COULD have facilitated this sort of activity. I have absolutely no evidence that this happened, however people I have spoken to over the years certainly suggest that it did and I know other folks on the forum have had similar conversations as shown in the Evil of the Daleks thread. Remember the difference between film and video series - as I’ve previously outlined. We know that things made it to SA before TV - including “British TV” - but I’d contend this was almost always film series. |
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Post by Jon Preddle on Oct 23, 2021 22:07:53 GMT
SA TV was only ever a PAL colour broadcaster. It's unlikely to have been receiving b/w film, legally, illegally or otherwise.
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 24, 2021 17:31:57 GMT
Having said that, and I agree that it’s always a good idea to think the best of people, other factors like poverty, siege mentality and economic failure can make having a moral compass an expensive luxury. (Philip Morris explanation of the disappearance of Web 3 is a possible case in point). Sanctions busting was an art form in Rhodesia in the late 60’s / 70’s as was getting around the cultural and sporting boycott in South Africa. Applying sanctions & boycotts doesn’t make the recipient countries cooperate, human nature suggests exactly the opposite. Mozambique and Zambia, were both bordering states to Rhodesia, in severe economic difficulty themselves and although strongly opposed to the governments in Pretoria and Salisbury traded quietly in the background with both countries (even at the same time as allowing the insurgents entering Rhodesia to operate out of their countries), and COULD have facilitated this sort of activity. I have absolutely no evidence that this happened, however people I have spoken to over the years certainly suggest that it did and I know other folks on the forum have had similar conversations as shown in the Evil of the Daleks thread. Remember the difference between film and video series - as I’ve previously outlined. We know that things made it to SA before TV - including “British TV” - but I’d contend this was almost always film series. Point already taken, I think we’ve moved on from Fawlty Towers, I certainly have. |
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Post by richardwoods on Oct 24, 2021 17:35:25 GMT
SA TV was only ever a PAL colour broadcaster. It's unlikely to have been receiving b/w film, legally, illegally or otherwise. I’m not talking about SA TV at all but generally about supplying the 16mm home movie stores / independent cinemas in SA and sanctions busting in Rhodesia in the main. |
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