Reality Check - Archive Logistics

[markoates]

PH O'Neill kindly gave me this link on BBC archive holdings: www.interactivemusicnetwork.org/wg_imaging/upload/bbc-archive.pdf

What’s in the BBC Archives?
•1.5 million items of film and videotape
•750,000 radio recordings
•3 million photographs
•1.2 million commercial recordings
•4 million items of sheet music
•22 million newspaper cuttings
•550,000 document files
•20,000 rolls of microfilm

1.5 million items of film and VT comprising 600,000 hours (or 69 years continuous) material. Of that only 6% has been commercially exploited. The ITV archive is probably of a similar size. Add in European broadcasters and you can multiply the number by ten. Add in everybody else and there was probably the best part of 2000 years' of video and film generated during the 20th Century and which still exists.

Did you know, BTW, that 90% of silent era movies and 50% of movies produced prior to 1950 have been lost irretrievably?

Even if you put these figures against each other, the odds of there being something previously thought lost out there are pretty good. The problem is one of logistics - simply cataloguing it all. There is no central library holdings database, and most broadcasters and studios have - shall we say - haphazard cataloguing measures. A good many Hollywood studios still operate the "pile 'em up in the woodshed" system of asset storage.

Then you have the stuff that has simply "walked" and is now to be found on eBay.

There's plenty of stuff out there, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for anything to suddenly turn up.

[Freddy Thomson]

Is that 50% of all movies before 1950, including the 90% of silent era films, or 50% of talkies produced before 1950?
Also, while many finds probably won't interest the BBC etc, if certain shows like missing Dad's Army or Dr Who are found, the financial reawrds for the companies is obvious. Realistically only about 2% of missing material is probably actually desired by the Beeb, but it's those shows which things like the Treasure Hunt are geared towards.........

[andrew martin]

The BBC is interested in any television programmes that are currently missing from the archive, whether there is any commercial value or not - and I know a few people will dispute that... That said, if it's going to cost a fortune or involve other complications, there may be cases where it's not possible to recover material. Unfortunately even setting up a 'Treasure Hunt' project costs money - recovery procedures outside that have to be fitted in around the normal day to day work of archivists.

[Gary]

Regarding what you just said Andrew, does it apply that the BBC are after TOTP?I know they are aware of missing material in fair quantity overseas but they appear to have little inclination to recover it.This is odd as they have been pointed in the direction of where it is. See the Kinks Wonderboy thread in music section.I know this is offtopic for here but I wanted to know your views on this matter.TOTP and missing pop footage should be considered a jewel in the archives crown.There is so little from it there from the 1960s as it stands youd think they would be keen to get anything they could back.

[andrew martin]

I'm aware of the threads re TOTP. In the past TOTP has been mainly dealt with by its own production office, since because of Top of the Pops 2 they had an interest in old TOTP material as a production requirement. It's easy to assume that somehow they or the BBC in general 'couldn't be bothered' to recover material - but the facts (and I'm unfortunately not privy to all the details of the negotiations) would appear to suggest that any material is either too expensive to obtain (the archive unfortunately isn't over-funded, especially in these days of big BBC cuts) or of poor technical quality. While collectors may not mind the latter, there is a limit to how much use such material can ever be to a professional broadcaster. That's not to say it can never be any use at all, but the various pros and cons have to be weighed up when spending licence money (and before anyone cites any examples of large amounts paid for any particular performers or other scandals in the tabloids, all I can say is 'not my department'. Sorry.)

[Simon Winchester]

Come the day that we see missing episodes on Page 3. There's only one thing usually missing on page 3.

[markoates]

50% of sound movies produced 1927-1950, AFAIK.

[Laurence Piper]

[quote author=andrew martin
It's easy to assume that somehow they or the BBC in general 'couldn't be bothered' to recover material - but the facts (and I'm unfortunately not privy to all the details of the negotiations) would appear to suggest that any material is either too expensive to obtain (the archive unfortunately isn't over-funded, especially in these days of big BBC cuts) or of poor technical quality. While collectors may not mind the latter, there is a limit to how much use such material can ever be to a professional broadcaster. [/quote]

Actually, the facts are a bit different. Certainly with the numerous Disco clips from ZDF, these are all colour VT material of broadcast standard and are repeated on satellite channels at regular intervals (I have many of them myself). The clips are clearly recognisable as TOTP and are usually intro'd as such. I have a list of the clips used in Disco and it amounts to several dozen. Now surely - as the BBC knows and has contact with ZDF - it would not be hard to take copies of these? Put together, they would amount to something approaching a second volume of the TOTP DVD! Many people who don't have access to Disco either and so will not have seen these performances before. This is a sizeable recovery and not to be ignored.

As regards the earlier '60s clips, many seem to exist as broadcast clips re-used in European TV shows; I spoke to Keith Badman (pop author and writer for Record Collector) about this and he personally offered the BBC VHS copies as proof of existence of some of these clips that he'd located in foreign archives. He pointed them in the direction of where the masters were but they just weren't interested.

I know this isn't directly connected with you, Andrew, and i'm not attacking you here. I am just making the point that it's shocking that the BBC are so indifferent to recovering their own material when all the locating has already been done by dedicated fans! It makes a mockery of initiatives like Treasure Hunts / MBWs etc. I agree with someone above who said that vintage pop TV is a real archival jewel in the crown (or should be) but it is being sidelined badly as it seems not to be flavour of the month. This attitude will be regretted when it's too late...

[Fluff Not Alf]

Laurence said:

[quote author=andrew martin
It's easy to assume that somehow they or the BBC in general 'couldn't be bothered' to recover material - but the facts (and I'm unfortunately not privy to all the details of the negotiations) would appear to suggest that any material is either too expensive to obtain (the archive unfortunately isn't over-funded, especially in these days of big BBC cuts) or of poor technical quality. While collectors may not mind the latter, there is a limit to how much use such material can ever be to a professional broadcaster.

Actually, the facts are a bit different. Certainly with the numerous Disco clips from ZDF, these are all colour VT material of broadcast standard and are repeated on satellite channels at regular intervals (I have many of them myself). The clips are clearly recognisable as TOTP and are usually intro'd as such. I have a list of the clips used in Disco and it amounts to several dozen. Now surely - as the BBC knows and has contact with ZDF - it would not be hard to take copies of these? Put together, they would amount to something approaching a second volume of the TOTP DVD! Many people who don't have access to Disco either and so will not have seen these performances before. This is a sizeable recovery and not to be ignored.

As regards the earlier '60s clips, many seem to exist as broadcast clips re-used in European TV shows; I spoke to Keith Badman (pop author and writer for Record Collector) about this and he personally offered the BBC VHS copies as proof of existence of some of these clips that he'd located in foreign archives. He pointed them in the direction of where the masters were but they just weren't interested.

I know this isn't directly connected with you, Andrew, and i'm not attacking you here. I am just making the point that it's shocking that the BBC are so indifferent to recovering their own material when all the locating has already been done by dedicated fans! It makes a mockery of initiatives like Treasure Hunts / MBWs etc. I agree with someone above who said that vintage pop TV is a real archival jewel in the crown (or should be) but it is being sidelined badly as it seems not to be flavour of the month. This attitude will be regretted when it's too late... [/quote]

As I understand it, these European archive clips (and specifically the ZDF ones) fall into the category that Andrew refers to as complicated.

The BBC knows about these clips and has tried to obtain them, but there is a dispute over the copyright of the material because of the frequent insertion of ZDF-originated shots of an audience dancing. Because of these shots, which are unwanted anyway, ZDF considers that the BBC would have to pay them commercial licensing rates to obtain the material, even though 95% of it belongs to the BBC. Things are complicated further by the fact that ZDF have been selling the material on to other broadcasters for years when they didn't and don't actually have the rights to do so. Not surprisingly, it's quite messy and complex from a legal point of view. It's easy for us to sit here at our computers and say it's clear-cut, but it isn't as far as the ZDF legal people are concerned (if they admit it's the BBC's copyright, they'd lay themselves open to being sued for all the years they've been selling it) and this, alone, means that at the moment the material is only likely to return to the BBC under 2 circumstances:

1 - the BBC pays ZDF for the material (effectively buying back at commercial rates what it owns and what ZDF isn't really in a position to sell

2 - they go to court over it, which would probably be a pyrrhic victory as it would likely cost more than just paying ZDF.

That's why it ain't gonna happen. And to be honest, for fans of the music, as long as ZDF keep allowing it to be transmitted on satellite, does it matter whether or not it's sitting in Windmill Road?

[Kev]

This is immensely frustrating.

You'd want to bang their heads together and get them to produse a joint double dvd, incorporating Pop Go The 60's, and split the profits 50/50.

It opens an interesting debate. We bang on about recovering stuff, but the problem is one of accessibilty.

There are many surviving clips of totp that have never been repeated. That is almost as bad as if they have been wiped.

I know where there is some great Thank Your Lucky Stars material, but that's where it will stay due to copyright problems.

If it stays in a vault forever, it might as well not exist!

[William Martin]

Are you able to tell us what Keith Badman has copies of especialy the 60s stuff?(if you've already posted this info just ignore this).

[Laurence Piper]

[quote author=Fluff Not Alf
The BBC knows about these clips and has tried to obtain them, but there is a dispute over the copyright of the material because of the frequent insertion of ZDF-originated shots of an audience dancing. Because of these shots, which are unwanted anyway, ZDF considers that the BBC would have to pay them commercial licensing rates to obtain the material, even though 95% of it belongs to the BBC. Things are complicated further by the fact that ZDF have been selling the material on to other broadcasters for years when they didn't and don't actually have the rights to do so. [/quote]

Yes, this is all true but the answer would be to replace the Disco cutaway shots with repeated shots from the TOTP portion of the clips (I have done re-edits of some of this stuff for my own use and so it's possible). That would neatly side-step the problem. ZDF can hardly deny the majority of the clips are from TOTP either as a) many have intros by the German presenter that makes it clear, b) some of the clips have a BBC slate or snippet of DJ intro to then, c) a few clips even have a "TOTP" logo bass drum being used by the performers!

That's one thing though. The b/w '60s clips are another (they do not have the cutaway problem). Many of these clips are floating around out there on VHS anyway - so we know they exist. Paperwork should confirm that the items in question were sourced from the BBC in the first place.

You just think that the BBC could try a little harder sometimes...

[Simon Winchester]

'You just think that the BBC could try a little harder sometimes...'

The BBC is a bit like a woman when it comes to trying harder.

[Laurence Piper]

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