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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 20, 2012 5:35:31 GMT
* The original T/Rs made from the master tapes of these five episodes, and these five only, needed some cosmetic alteration, maybe to fix fades to black, remove off-locks, whatever. (This happened with an ep of The Keys of Marinus.) According to this article (click on Film Recording, and scroll down about half way): archive.whoniversity.co.uk/tech/index.htmlone of the eps of The Ice Warriors suffered from "misregistration". I'm wondering whether these cutting copies were indeed created to remove the worst imperfections on the TR negs prior to making copies for overseas. The '1988' prints are therefore some of the positives struck for the editing process, but are not the actual ones that were edited (otherwise the imperfections would no longer be there); as the A+B labels indicate these are maybe a mix of first (A), and a back-up second copy (B). The 16B, 11C codes might be, as previously suggested, nothing more than a filing system number. So, what other imperfections are there in the extant eps of The Ice Warriors?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 20, 2012 9:37:10 GMT
Hi Jon,
I can confirm that there were no physical splices in the prints of 'The Ice Warriors', but that doesn't mean to say trims weren't made to remove off-locks from the neg.
The "mis-registration" is in reality probably a bouncing join when the film was printed from the neg. Also, it's possible that the version used on the 'Whoniversity' site was telecined badly. I don't know where they got it from.
Many early releases were telecined as if the material was actual film. Specially shot 16mm had a severe TV safe area, because 16mm isn't exactly the same shape as a TV screen. Transferring 16mm film recordings and observing the TV safe area was the norm in the 80's and early 1990's, and a lot of picture area from archive recordings was lost. The Restoration Team now transfer the maximum picture area, often in higher resolutions that standard definition TV to make best use of the available image. In the case of the recently restored 'Underwater Menace 2', I asked the Australian Archives and their contractor Deluxe to transfer the entire film frame area, including the sprocket holes and optical soundtrack. The frames were scanned at 2k resolution which meant Peter at SVS had the best chance of removing fine film damage and could properly register it with the recovered print.
The 'Fury' film being in a smaller 35mm can (but with the original label) could mean that the film was broken down into two by a foreign broadcaster and returned like that. However, I am inclined to think that these were returned films which were either damaged or audition prints of some sort.
Paul
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 20, 2012 14:43:28 GMT
Jon: If foreign broadcasters had the habit of breaking down film reels for advertisements, fade corrections, censoring, cutting, advertisements, etc., wouldn't they be supplied with a number of blank BBC labels to correct the data on the film canister?
For example, 1" of censoring has been applied to Film A by Nigeria, thus the duration is now less than stated. Before bicycling Film A to the next country (that perhaps asked Nigeria to keep their censor decisions), they'd need to correct the data on the canister. Be bad if the next country played a reel they thought was 1" longer, only to wind up with 1" worth of dead air. Peel off the Label, apply a blank BBC label, rewrite the information to show new duration times, and then send it off.
Thus the black marker doesn't necessarily have to been written by BBC? Maybe it was the foreign broadcaster who, after making their edits, rewrote the labels to reflect correct information for the next country so they could accurately measure how much time the film would run for.
Certainly would explain why FotD6 label was on a 35mm canister, if the foreign broadcaster didn't have time to put the reels back together. So he sends them both in a 35mm canister, slaps on the new label, and tells the next country to "join the two reels".
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 20, 2012 15:31:16 GMT
Jon: If foreign broadcasters had the habit of breaking down film reels for advertisements, fade corrections, censoring, cutting, advertisements, etc., wouldn't they be supplied with a number of blank BBC labels to correct the data on the film canister? I'm afraid this didn't happen. Usually broadcasters replaced labels with their own labels... Paul
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 20, 2012 16:12:27 GMT
Just throwing more theories out there:
If one were to make an assumption that New Zealand supplied Nigeria. And Nigeria didn't have Ice Warriors or Fury of the Deep because New Zealand rejected the two and possibly sent them back ... could the unknown markings "2B, 11C, etc." be a sort of individual/personal grading system by a New Zealand reviewer?
So if the reviewer made cuts, then graded the episode quality after the cuts. Or maybe it was a grade of the episode prior to cuts. So Episode Five, either before or after the censoring, was graded C. Fury of the Deep 6 was graded a poor D. And the culmination of these grades resulted in the two serials being classified as "Y" and sent back to BBC?
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 20, 2012 17:32:42 GMT
... could the unknown markings "2B, 11C, etc." be a sort of individual/personal grading system by a New Zealand reviewer? Only the esteemed Mr. Preddle can answer that one!
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 20, 2012 19:36:14 GMT
Just throwing more theories out there: If one were to make an assumption that New Zealand supplied Nigeria. And Nigeria didn't have Ice Warriors or Fury of the Deep because New Zealand rejected the two and possibly sent them back ... could the unknown markings "2B, 11C, etc." be a sort of individual/personal grading system by a New Zealand reviewer? So if the reviewer made cuts, then graded the episode quality after the cuts. Or maybe it was a grade of the episode prior to cuts. So Episode Five, either before or after the censoring, was graded C. Fury of the Deep 6 was graded a poor D. And the culmination of these grades resulted in the two serials being classified as "Y" and sent back to BBC? Hi Mark. A nice idea, but I'd have to say 'no'. I've seen the NZBC censors' notes for The Ice Warriors, and there's nothing in those, or for any other of the thousands of programmes they previewed, to indicate any sort of grading system. If there was, other ex-NZBC film labels would have similar 'grades' written on them, but of the many I've seen, none do. Jon
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 20, 2012 19:40:05 GMT
Jon: If foreign broadcasters had the habit of breaking down film reels for advertisements, fade corrections, censoring, cutting, advertisements, etc., wouldn't they be supplied with a number of blank BBC labels to correct the data on the film canister? I'm afraid this didn't happen. Usually broadcasters replaced labels with their own labels... Paul Paul is correct. The NZBC often, but not always, placed their own stickers over the top of or to the side of the BBC sticker, and on that they wrote their own catalogue number, censors rating, and timing (post any cuts).
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 20, 2012 19:53:45 GMT
One other thing not yet commented on about these stickers is the blue biro OO1, OO4, OO5, OO6. "OO" is the BBC's code for The Ice Warriors. Of interest, the 'black' writing on the first can says EPI TWO, but this is crossed out and the blue biro says OO1. Presumably these blue handwritten notations are Adam Lee's, or that of whomever inspected the films when they were found to determine their contents, because as we know it was discovered that inside the EP2 can was in fact part one. Ergo, the blue biro was added in 1988.
But note that the writing "2 prints" on OO5 looks very much like it's the same handwriting with the same blue biro. All the other handwriting on these labels looks faded, but the blue looks clearer. So, in 1988 when these cans were found, were there indeed "2 prints" of part five? And if so, what happened to the other one?
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 20, 2012 19:55:11 GMT
Well, it was a thought working under the assumption that the prints are New Zealand's prints. Just thought it was nice that the two serials in question are the same two serials New Zealand didn't air and Nigeria didn't get.
Back to square one.
Jon: I read that Ice Warriors, although it didn't air it was censored. Which parts were censored? Do the records say?
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 20, 2012 20:16:19 GMT
One other thing not yet commented on about these stickers is the blue biro OO1, OO4, OO5, OO6. "OO" is the BBC's code for The Ice Warriors. Of interest, the 'black' writing on the first can says EPI TWO, but this is crossed out and the blue biro says OO1. Presumably these blue handwritten notations are Adam Lee's, or that of whomever inspected the films when they were found to determine their contents, because as we know it was discovered that inside the EP2 can was in fact part one. Ergo, the blue biro was added in 1988. But note that the writing "2 prints" on OO5 looks very much like it's the same handwriting with the same blue biro. All the other handwriting on these labels looks faded, but the blue looks clearer. So, in 1988 when these cans were found, were there indeed "2 prints" of part five? And if so, what happened to the other one? Theory: Blue handwriting must've been added after episodes were separated at some point in its history. If the blue-pen writer figured out the can held Episode 1, he would've just put it back in the same can. Since that didn't happen, whomever blue-handwriter is didn't have ep 1's canister at the time. 1988 was when they were discovered and their importance realized. The blue pen says "2 prints" but that was never reported in 1988 or since. So maybe when they were pulled out of the cupboard the blue ink was on them. At some point between their return to the UK and their discovery in 1988 they were in an archive that contained a second print of Episode 5, but was missing the canister for Episode 1. Blue-writer at that point made his marks, and then either he or someone else pushed them to the back of the cupboard. Edit: Also, anything to be read in the fact that the blue marks were underlined, double underlined, or not underlined? Or is that just reading TOO much into this?
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Post by Steven Sigel on Sept 20, 2012 21:01:40 GMT
One other thing not yet commented on about these stickers is the blue biro OO1, OO4, OO5, OO6. "OO" is the BBC's code for The Ice Warriors. Of interest, the 'black' writing on the first can says EPI TWO, but this is crossed out and the blue biro says OO1. Presumably these blue handwritten notations are Adam Lee's, or that of whomever inspected the films when they were found to determine their contents, because as we know it was discovered that inside the EP2 can was in fact part one. Ergo, the blue biro was added in 1988. But note that the writing "2 prints" on OO5 looks very much like it's the same handwriting with the same blue biro. All the other handwriting on these labels looks faded, but the blue looks clearer. So, in 1988 when these cans were found, were there indeed "2 prints" of part five? And if so, what happened to the other one? There were only single prints of each episode found in 1988.. There certainly could have been multiple prints at some other point in time.
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Post by George D on Sept 20, 2012 21:25:21 GMT
To share my thoughts on whether Adam Lee wrote the "oo1", Im wondering if Adam knew or cared about that type of notation. Some fans have it memorized, but I dont think Adam would have been one to look it up to write on cans he disposed of under David's desk. I think he was having too busy using the marker writing on the films themself It would be interesting if anyone knows if it looks like his handwriting though. Another question I have for whomever is what vintage are the labels or what years they were generally used. If they are 60s 70s labels then its possible the writing is original. If they're 80s labels, then it means that Fury from the Deep 6 existed into the 1980s. By the way, Im actually enjoying this conversation a lot more than the general "leads" and "favorite episode" posts, its actually educational, thought provoking, and may lead to new information about the history of these prints.
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 20, 2012 21:36:29 GMT
Of note, the Blue ink is correctional. The writer saw that the film in the canister marked "Two" was actually "One" and made the correction.
But when the individual looked in the Fury of the Deep canister, the writer did not make a correction to say that it was not FotD6. That also suggests to me that the canister contained what it said at that time.
Also: Blue pen numbers have the same strokes in the same order as the numbers written in black marker. The "2" in "2 prints" curls at the top. Just as the "2" does for the durations and the "reel 2 of 2". The "5" in "OO5" is made in two strokes same as the "5" in the Footage section of the first two reels. The "6" in "OO6" curls into a spiral, similar to the "6" in "16" under the Title. The "R" in "RR6" is similar to a few of the many "R"s located throughout the title.
Suggests that the two writers are either the same person or live in the same community. At least to me it does.
Edit: On closer inspection, I'm not sure if "RR6" was added by the same person at the same time. Coloring is different and handwriting seems different. Compare the "6" to "oo6"
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 20, 2012 21:45:33 GMT
Jon: I read that Ice Warriors, although it didn't air it was censored. Which parts were censored? Do the records say? All six eps were censored in terms of being viewed and classified. Not censored as in "cut". Cuts were not made to programmes that weren't going to air.
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