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Post by Steven Sigel on Sept 19, 2012 3:03:54 GMT
The prints look like they were hardly used. No signs of wear or other use.
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Post by George D on Sept 19, 2012 3:13:36 GMT
That causes me to wonder if these reels were never sent out. Perhaps they were originally made for cutting room or internal purposes but never used.
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Post by Mark Vanderlinde-Abernathy on Sept 19, 2012 3:14:52 GMT
That sounds better than the copy of Underwater Menace that showed up They sound like they were taken well cared of. Steven: Still being a total newbie here in this community. I take it you have copies of episodes 5 and 6 of Ice Warriors? That causes me to wonder if these reels were never sent out. Perhaps they were originally made for cutting room or internal purposes but never used. I was actually thinking "viewing copies", in reference to that Germany lead we had a while back.
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Post by George D on Sept 19, 2012 3:54:26 GMT
Anything is possible Mark.
The most important thing is we have them. If the 4 Ice Warriors and Tomb didnt show up, Season 5 would be in even sadder shape.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 19, 2012 5:28:20 GMT
This and the above, all very good points. (I'd completely forgotten about Lee water-marking the prints...)
I so thought I was on to something. Sigh. Back to square one....
Still, I do find it odd that if these *were* solely for internal use, why did someone go to all the trouble of labelling the cans with so much detail? Sure, series name and episode title, but the BBC Ent code, footage and duration?
We'll probably never know.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 19, 2012 5:29:40 GMT
The prints look like they were hardly used. No signs of wear or other use. But which doesn't necessarily exclude them from not being used once, by just *one* overseas broadcaster.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 19, 2012 5:38:34 GMT
As I suggested back a few pages (!), could these Cutting Copies have been assembled in order to insert longer fades to black for overseas purposes? The handwritten durations are longer than the broadcast durations.
Therefore, any off-air recordings would be out of sync with the picture at these fades.
Can anyone in the know confirm either way?
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Post by davidstead on Sept 19, 2012 7:23:39 GMT
I think you are spot on there, Steven.
I was never told whereabts on the Ian Levine prints, the marks had been put, just that they along with the Archive ones, had been.
Dx
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 19, 2012 7:32:22 GMT
I think you are spot on there, Steven. I was never told whereabts on the Ian Levine prints, the marks had been put, just that they along with the Archive ones, had been. I can confirm that the archive prints that were found in Villiers House were physically marked. This marking is not something that can be reversed other than to copy and restore in the usual fashion for a future release. Paul
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Post by George D on Sept 19, 2012 14:39:05 GMT
The way to tell is if someone has an original off air recording from the 1960s to play it back at the same time and see if there are any changes. My gut is though i doubt they would go to the effort in increasing fades.. More likely it was made for something that it was never used for. Even if this idea didnt pan out, youre thinking and thats great.. Keep it up. As I suggested back a few pages (!), could these Cutting Copies have been assembled in order to insert longer fades to black for overseas purposes? The handwritten durations are longer than the broadcast durations. Therefore, any off-air recordings would be out of sync with the picture at these fades. Can anyone in the know confirm either way?
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Post by George D on Sept 19, 2012 14:40:21 GMT
David.. Was that pun intential? lol I think you are spot on there, Steven.
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Post by davidstead on Sept 19, 2012 15:01:16 GMT
lol, I like that one George. :-) As Paul has rightly said, the Archival master prints were marked with spurious cue dots (around the same time Ian Levine's film print copies were also marked). I was shown at the time whereabts on the archival ones, but always thought it was rather an extreme measure to mark master material. Thankfully with new digital remastering techniques, the marks can be 'erased' on digital tfr's. missingepisodes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=6388
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Post by Steven Sigel on Sept 19, 2012 15:04:23 GMT
David -- I think the marks were only on the masters -- the marks on the copies look like they are printed through rather than physically marked... I'll have to recheck to be sure.
If - however - the marks are on different frames - in theory Paul/Steve/Peter and co. could (if they wanted) take those frames from my prints to use to patch up the damaged frames in the masters...
I will investigate further.
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Post by Jon Preddle on Sept 19, 2012 23:22:56 GMT
One final (!!) thought on this A+B, 2 of 2 business...
If we accept the "Cutting Copy" stickers as being correct, and that these are indeed prints used for cutting purposes, then this may been the chain of events:
* The original T/Rs made from the master tapes of these five episodes, and these five only, needed some cosmetic alteration, maybe to fix fades to black, remove off-locks, whatever. (This happened with an ep of The Keys of Marinus.) * Positives were struck to make these required alterations, as it's easier to edit film visually using a positive than a negative. * At least *two copies* of each episode were made, in case a second attempt at alteration was required. * Once the desired changes had been made and accepted, the original T/R negatives were in turn cut to match. * From the now-altered negatives, the positives were struck for distribution to the foreign broadcasters. * The five "cutting copies" and any duplicates were filed, rather than being disposed of, and these were subsequently found in 1988...
As noted earlier, one best "test" to this theory is to compare the prints against an off-air audio to see what, if any, changes there are. Presumably this would be done as a matter of routine for the eventual DVD release...?
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Post by George D on Sept 19, 2012 23:48:07 GMT
Heres a question for David about the Fury can.
I know we dont know anything definitively, but knowing the personality and the iq of the people involved, what of the following do you think is possible?
Do you think they would have returned an empty can?
Do you think its possible that because of the smaller can they could have dismissed contents without checking at archives?
If there was a part or full episode in the can do you think someone could have pifered it at archives?
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