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Post by richardfitzgerald on Sept 19, 2010 10:55:40 GMT
""It makes you wonder. This new find flies in the face of those who are continually stating with "certainty" that nothing more is out there. I'd guess that the LOC scenario is, if not common, then certainly not a one-off by any means."" There's tons of stuff out there. I mean, this huge find, all the 'Raiders' Discoveries, the OOTU, the school films, that BBC film found in Bath, the LNLU film, the Rolf Harris show, the Hendrix and Hollies clips and even the bits of N1500 recordings I've found on youtube. If you think someone may have footage ask. If they haven't, you're no worse off. Hi Ray, The major problem is understanding what this discovery by the Library of Congress really is. It's a goldmine of drama and a marvel. But the last time anything like this happened was long before the internet era when my discovery of 200 titles in Cyprus in 1989 was reported. These finds are inevitable as libraries catalogue their holdings, but few do. Most dispose of their material and this will be or already has been the fate of most of this kind of programming. In all honesty, finding several editions of TOTP on obsolete video formats in average to poor quality doesn't do justice to the original material or give a fair representation of the programme itself. You could argue a couple of stills and a soundtrack is a better option. You are right though to say that there is no harm in asking and there will still be discoveries this way. Sometimes though it is how you ask that will make the difference. Paul Paul not wishing to start another hare running but is there any particular reason why the BBC would not be interested in retrieving the full set of Fabian of the Yard from the overseas archive it resides in? Was it not an actual BBC production? |
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 19, 2010 12:42:36 GMT
not wishing to start another hare running but is there any particular reason why the BBC would not be interested in retrieving the full set of Fabian of the Yard from the overseas archive it resides in? Was it not an actual BBC production? Actually, I have no idea. If it is BBC there isn't any reason not to acquire it. But the problem with archives like the UCLA etc... is that their content is, in the main, not purchased but donated from other collections. No contract has ever existed between the BBC and them. In the US it is common for syndicated TV shows to be residing in archives and private collections and private sales of copyright materials are treated in exactly the same way as a person selling on a DVD or a VHS copy. These are seen as copies of master material, not originals. These archives often don't have full time staff or it's run by volunteers, so the process is lengthy and you have to justify and prove why you think the material is yours and you should have it back. In the US, the odds are stacked against foreign broadcasters because unlike the UK/BBC and most other countries/national broadcasters, the US didn't until 1972 regard films without a copyright date on them as being under copyright. There were strict rules prior to that which governed what a copyright notice should say. It's why BBC programmes had a copyright date on them from 1972. But there wasn't at the time any retrospective acknowledgement of copyright in any programmes the BBC made prior to then, so that means that most BBC and other programmes made and broadcast in the UK before then are now regarded as public domain in the US. Barking, I know. What has a programme broadcast in the UK under the law of our land got to do with the US copyright laws? Nothing. But they didn't see it like that. This isn't the end of the story though. Broadcasters can give a notice of their intention to enforce copyright in their programmes by registering it and paying a fee. It takes about a year to go through. Some of you probably think this is unfair, that programmes which were made almost exclusively for a UK audience and then sold for distribution in the US could effectively be stolen (in rights terms) by any US citizen residing in the US. Any foreign broadcaster who didn't stick a copyright date on their films (and often collectors would try and circumvent the existing rules anyway by cutting off the copyright notice or the BBC/station ident captions from films) could have a problem getting back their property. So if there is a problem getting this material back it may be that under US law it's a public domain work and the BBC would need to exercise their right to enforce the original copyright. That costs money. Do you think they'll do it? Paul |
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Post by richardfitzgerald on Sept 19, 2010 13:16:46 GMT
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Post by richardfitzgerald on Sept 19, 2010 13:22:36 GMT
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 19, 2010 14:45:36 GMT
Hi Richard, I think the BBC are listed as airing the series originally, but I don't think they have any rights in it. Screen Gems obviously had limited distribution rights and probably discovered that when their rights lapsed, the copyright holder no longer existed. IMDB state Trinity and Telefilm were owners; I don't think the BBC ever were, nor have an interest. Of course, precisely who does own the material now is an interesting question. If the rights holders are around, the films (as distribution films) can't simply be donated to a third party. Regards, Paul |
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Post by richardfitzgerald on Sept 19, 2010 16:09:08 GMT
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Post by Paul Vanezis on Sept 19, 2010 17:32:47 GMT
Well, the BBC may well have been a co-producer, but often with this type of programming, the BBC only had UK TX rights for a limited period, beyond which all rights revert to the producer. There are exceptions of course, but I think it's possible that despite being a co-producer the BBC has no further rights and therefore would not require copies. There's probably a file at Caversham about these programmes. Paul |
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Post by Kev Mulrenan on Sept 19, 2010 17:35:35 GMT
Do they have a lost Redifussion show? Film, Video and Sound -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fonds/collection: CANADIAN BROADCASTING CORPORATION, TELEVISION: KINES FROM PARC, TORONTO General accesss conditions for collection Consultation: open Reproduction: with the written permission of copyright owner : with permission of CBC Remarks: 1. Kines already copied to video were accessioned separately under this collection name between 1982 and 1985. 2. Collection includes prints, negatives, and sound tracks (magnetic and some optical). [1-1] Restrictions on individual titles within this Collection may differ from the General Access Conditions Accession number: 1986-0810 Item number (ISN): 77159 Media: Film Title: Intertel Living with a Giant Part: 1 of 1 Release date: 1962-04-11 Production company: Associated-Rediffusion Ltd. Country of production: uk Production credit: director, Rollo Gamble; script, Elkan Allan; narrator, Lord Boothby Distribution: Country - distribution: cn Name of distributor: Canadian Broadcasting Corporation Description: DOCUMENTARY English Documentary about the economic domination of Canada by the United States. Catalogue number: 157A 157B 5993 5994 10693 10694 Notes: 1. Broadcast in the United States on May 14, 1962. Physical description |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2010 17:47:44 GMT
I wonder if the BFI could ask for copies archive to archive (the canadian listings do mention a couple of episodes are also held by the NFT). I wondered about this happening with the BFI and UCLA, with relation to the Rediffusion material they hold. |
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Post by Tim Disney on Sept 19, 2010 19:38:24 GMT
Do they have a lost Redifussion show? Looks like they do. Rediffusion produced a lot of documentaries that were screened overseas as part of the Intertel scheme. They were very proud of their contributions to Intertel in terms of programming and exporting their expertise to the television services of many developing nations in Asia, Africa and others. |
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Post by richardfitzgerald on Sept 19, 2010 20:20:39 GMT
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Post by Kev Mulrenan on Sept 19, 2010 20:26:13 GMT
Wow! John Cleese narrating! Inspiration for Ministry of Silly walks perhaps! |
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Post by Ally Wilson on Sept 20, 2010 6:31:40 GMT
There are tons of '60s BBC docos on film there as well. I'd say someone knowledgable needs to go through the catalogue. Lostshows.com is scanty on documentaries, but I'd be surprised if all that stuff existed elsewhere. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2010 7:22:51 GMT
Very interesting information, Richard! This just supports the idea that more UK material (and Rediffusion to boot) resides in other official archives as well as LOC. Archives that may have been approached / asked in the past but have never been scoured in detail, even if an official reply one way or the other was given.
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Post by cperry on Sept 20, 2010 7:45:54 GMT
When the Kal guides were put together originally 20 years ago we took the view that holdings would reflect UK archives. We have continued with that view because it is so, so hard to get independent verifiable proof that overseas archives do have what they claim.
Even with UK archives they often say they have things and then look for them and the can is empty. We have tried 2 test cases in recent years with ITV material overseas and in both cases the online listing was wrong.
So for now we just reserve judgement and by keeping them missing on Lostshows we hope prints will turn up in the UK that are offered back to broadcasters here.
c
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