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Post by Luke Phelps on Sept 23, 2008 10:25:10 GMT
Is the below true as I can only find one source?! (Offthetelly.co.uk)
"Some time in the early 1990s, a huge amount of videotaped children's programmes were bulk-erased by the BBC archives. Amongst these were episodes of Animal Magic, Take Hart, Vision On, Play School, Play Away, Jackanory Playhouse, The Adventure Game, the first three series of Rentaghost, the only known copies of the English language versions of several Tales From Europe, and a large amount of Watch With Mother. The master tapes of around half of the episodes of each of Ring-a-Ding, Ragtime, Playboard, How Do You Do!, Over the Moon and the extended versions of Bod were erased and most likely lost forever."
If so, is there a list of what is missing?
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Post by Koen Br on Sept 23, 2008 10:29:45 GMT
Like so many bad things in life, it's true.
A search on this forum will throw up some threads about this.
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Post by Joe Haynes on Sept 23, 2008 17:23:58 GMT
Why were they deleted in the 90's? Home video was massive then, especially for Childrens TV!. Does all episode of Rentaghost exist?
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Post by Andrew Doherty on Sept 23, 2008 18:52:11 GMT
Why were they deleted in the 90's? Home video was massive then, especially for Childrens TV!. Does all episode of Rentaghost exist? All the 'Rentaghost' episodes exist because there was a broadcaster that had copies of those wiped and had kept them for future transmission. Apparently, someone at the BBC realized that the wiped episodes, along with the existing episodes, were needed for a new contract and had found out this grim state of affairs (which should never have happened in the first place). Thankfully, they found copies of all the wiped episodes with the broadcaster and were able to recover the situation. Yours, |
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Post by Jonny Williams on Sept 23, 2008 18:55:39 GMT
I believe at the time of the wipings UK Gold had bought and were already broadcasting the first three series of Rentaghost and copies were subsequently returned to the BBC archive. Thus the whole of Rentaghost survives intact.
It's a real shame about the some of the other series mentioned - I'd have thought today shows like Animal Magic and especially Take Hart would be perfect chillout TV on a Sunday morning should a satellite/digital channel choose to run them!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2008 18:59:08 GMT
Rentaghost was amazingly one of the things that managed to be saved (as there were still sales copies being transmitted while the masters were being junked!) The rest were not so lucky. Adam Lee was responsible for the junkings (yes, the same Adam Lee talking about the value and diversity of the archives in a BBC online clip not long ago!) and it was a very short-sighted decision. All we can do is hope it never happens again but, personally, I don't believe they have ever really learned anything from past mistakes of this kind.
There is a thread about all of this, probably a few pages down now, which will go into more detail without repeating everything again.
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Post by Rich Cornock on Sept 23, 2008 20:08:50 GMT
interestingly its quite possible that a lot of kids tv survives in home recordings. in the days before cable tv etc a lot of parents would record childrens programs to replay when their kids were a bit grumpy etc ( a free baby sitter)
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Post by Peter Elliott on Sept 23, 2008 20:47:36 GMT
It's a real shame about the some of the other series mentioned - I'd have thought today shows like Animal Magic and especially Take Hart would be perfect chillout TV on a Sunday morning should a satellite/digital channel choose to run them! You aint kidding! I saw one of the earliest episodes of "Take Hart" last year and was stunned by just how laid back it really was. Tony Hart barely speaks and it just had a lovely laid back chilled vibe to it that was truly refreshing. I think it was a little TOO laid back for the BBC because they soon introduced the caretaker Mr Bennett and Morph became popular so they were used as devices to break up the calm and bring it back down to Earth! The early 90s wipings are indeed discussed in better detail in a thread here from a couple of months ago... truly disgraceful it happened and what made it worse was some of it was material that managed to survive the original junkings in the 70s. Best we can hope for in many cases are that off air recordings do exist, but given the price of blank videotapes back in the day, taping and then keeping entire series of "Take Hart" etc and hoping that these recordings can still be played back today... I'm sure you get the picture, so its fair to say parts of that material will never be recovered. A tragedy... especially given the way archive Childrens TV was celebrated in the early 90s round the time of these wipings for the "Lime Grove Day" and so on. |
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Post by Luke Phelps on Sept 24, 2008 4:23:18 GMT
Could anyone dig that previous thread up? I cant find it despite numerous searches!
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Post by cperry on Sept 24, 2008 8:58:13 GMT
Whilst I think what Adam Lee did was very very wrong and shortsighted, let's remind ourselves that the NFTVA were offered all this material on 2" that the BBC did not want to transfer to D3 and they turned it down. Adam disposed of it because no one at the time seemed to feel it would ever be seen again.
This is why Kaleidoscope has been systematically keeping the VHS archives of many ITV companies and organisations for some time, because the companies say it has no value to them any more but we feel that it is very valuable for the future.
c
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Post by Koen Br on Sept 24, 2008 9:05:40 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2008 11:30:51 GMT
Whilst I think what Adam Lee did was very very wrong and shortsighted, let's remind ourselves that the NFTVA were offered all this material on 2" that the BBC did not want to transfer to D3 and they turned it down. Adam disposed of it because no one at the time seemed to feel it would ever be seen again. c Well, to my mind the BFI are often a waste of space when it comes to their selective archiving policy. As you said yourself, Chris, they should hang their heads in shame at what they have passed up in the past. However, this wasn't the BFI's problem as it seems like the buck was just passed to them by Adam Lee. The question that really needs to be asked is why did the BBC not see any value in programmes in their own archive by as late as the '90s?!? Surely past mistakes should have told them that these things ARE valuable / useable in the future, no matter what they are. Lee made a unilateral decision too, as far as I can tell, whereas such far reaching decisions should not be left to one man EVER! It says a lot to me about how important the BBC really think their archive is. |
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Post by Robert Manners on Sept 24, 2008 16:47:05 GMT
by Adam Lee
Well I dare say I will watch Adam Lee in a new light now, what a shame and at a time when they were trying to get other lost programmes returned to the BBC archives
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Post by Andrew Doherty on Sept 24, 2008 19:07:51 GMT
In June 1992 I handed in some Philips 2000 tapes to the BFI that had contained what were missing comedy show sketches from the 1968 and 1973 'Marty' series.
Steve Bryant of the BFI and Adam Lee spent a whole day going through the tapes to check what was already in existence and what had been wiped, originally.
A large number of sketches were recovered so I was told, and I was also informed some time later that the BBC had discovered a 1954 'Animal, Vegetable, Mineral?' (significant for being a very early edition) and a 1957 'What's My Line?' (with the traditional panellists). I said to Adam Lee that such programmes from the '50s should be treasured by the BBC and he agreed.
However, there was not a hint at the time of any purge of television programming. I now think this is just as well, because had this been known I would have had a near impossible task of persuading individuals to part with their items and the archives might have had far fewer programmes returned.
It would not have happened to the radio or sound archives or other great archives. So television, yet again, was 'singled out' for this wanton vandalism, particularly flying in the face of the recommendations of the 1976 Annan Report. No reasons can ever justify it, and it is, again, beyond the worth of understanding!
A watch over our television archives should be maintained by an organization equivalent to, say, English Heritage. It is the only safe way to keep a check on such situations.
(Is there something less fashionable about protecting the British television archives?)
Strangely enough, the BFI started up the first 'Missing, Believed Wiped' event the following year, and I would think such an event could have proven to be a lot more problematic had any of this been known outside the BBC.
Yours,
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Post by Adrian Gregg on Sept 25, 2008 7:03:19 GMT
Umm although by default it seems that TV was "singled out" It cannot be further from the truth.
Like TV radio had its "overseas Division" the Transcription Service. blaa blaa blaaaaaaa
and Im sure you know the rest.. BUT
Becasue TS discs went Walkabout from radio stations FAR easier than TR's and could easly be copied its why radio seems to have a Plump archive rather than Telle, If you look at some "holdings" from the mid 70's you would see that Radio virtually (apart from Important Discs) were complete shot of material. fans had the opportunity to Tape more radio than to "tape" Tv.
Ive been going over some "radio and hobbies" mags from the late 30's to the late 70's ( I have a complete run and have read em all. to understand Older Technology) there were Very very good Tape Recorders around in at least 1953 (and many many acceptable ones at least 7 years before that) and lets not forget Disc cutters. the Vast amount of disc cutter "machines" add's Ive seen would make ya head spin. And they all worked remarably well. I know this as I have cut "test discs" one one or two of the "common" ones. and have 16inch Home Cut "Off Airs" from as far back as 1947, (see my blog for a ABC Ident from 47-8)
and video Recording Tech was there but it was like 100 times the price to "tape" a show (and thats just for the "media"
so all in all I personlay think Radio was the "thinner" of the two
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