Dad's Army - Mums Army TR? missing scenes

[Adrian Gregg]

I was just reading the Complete Dad's Army Script book. and before each show they have a bit of an interview with someone involved in the production, For Mums Army they chose Carmen Silvera who played Mrs Grey in the Episode. Now she remembers (dosent say the year) being givin a Video tape of a (her words) film print copy of said epp. now she says at the end of the episode there is an extra scene that was cut from transmittion. Cap Mannering is at the Platform with steam blowing all over (steam train just left) as the steam clears the Platoon is watching him. Now this last bit was cut (well it aint on the tapes now)

Ok my question is.. Where is this print now.. how did this part get onto the TR was it cut after the TR was made and before the VT was aired? and how many other scenes could exist in TR copies?.

All was it all in her mind

[Andy Howells]

I'm pretty certain if it had existed that it would have featured on the recently remastered DVD's. Ralph Montagu and Kevin Davies were pretty thorough on their research when doing these and even uncovered some peviously cut footage from Battle Of The Giants (although some short dialogue between Wilson and Captain Square is known to be cut ).

Not sure about Carmen's mind, I met her ten years ago and she seemed of pretty sound mind to me, infact a very charming lady. Sadly missed.

[Adrian Gregg]

I wasent saying she was mad or anything!! I though it might have been a "nice" story to tell people about a touching seen between Mannering and his men that was cut.
It's weird that the book came out in 2002 wasen't the dvd's released after that.
so why didd'nt anyone contact the family to see if they could use it on the dvd's?

And ive got a few of the DA dvd's and they seem pretty much bog standard issues to me.. ok the Doco's were Okish. but because of copyright issues meaning they can't use anything that isnt in that PARTICULAR series that's being released so for instance instead of getting the full comedy connections episode on One Foot in the grave we got this cut to buggery version.. the same with the Missing Belived Wiped doco. Nothing like the one on the TV.. and you would think it might have sparked a few people watching it seeing terry jones with a sony Reel. but alas cut it out..
I thought there could and should have been a LOT more on the DA DvD's but is it all to do with rights? sad world aint it if so..

[Adrian Gregg]

The battle of the giants cut section. do you know where it came from?
I was under the impression that the beeb had bugger all 625's in the late 70's Untill sometime mid 80's when abc or BBC Sydney had em.. as dad's army moved from ABC to a commecial station around 84 (i have off airs) which meant that the tapes were held onto for just a bit longer. which saved em.

Ok thats my own version of the story.. But what is the truth on the survival of the colour series..
It's not spoken about on any of the DVD's im aware of.. (which is a shame)

And how many TR's still exist of the colour series? or where they junked late 80's when the colour tapes came back.. or were they not missing to start with!!

Blimey, dr who fans know the bleedin tape stock used for each epp, how many prints went where and why. and for such a popular series as dad's army still is.. its very hard to get any info at all.

[Peter Elliott]

Jul 31, 2008 8:26:31 GMT Adrian Gregg said:

Blimey, dr who fans know the bleedin tape stock used for each epp, how many prints went where and why. and for such a popular series as dad's army still is.. its very hard to get any info at all.

I echo that same feeling of frustration. Info on Who is plentiful and comprehensive to the degrees that you noted yet for almost any other BBC show, information is at best, selective and sketchy. That's one of the joys of this forum actually, being able to learn whatever info is available. Don't get me wrong, I am a fan of DW (up to 1989 anyway) but it does frustrate me how a cheaply made kids show gets taken exceedingly seriously and gets carefully restored but many better shows don't.

The Dads Army b+w episodes rightly and deservedly were cleaned up and VidFired, but why weren't Steptoe and Son? Hancock? The Likely Lads? The DVDs of them could and should had been so much better. Such shows were far more popular than Who was in their heyday and are classic pieces of British TV history and I just think it's unfair that the same kind of love and care given to Who is rarely ever given to anything else.

[Andy Howells]

I think the fact that Dr who fans know so much is that there is a higher percentage of fans out there actively checking and rechecking tape stocks in TV archive libraries (and good luck to them!) , there is also a larger number of more Dr Who episodes missing than Dad's Army. (4 if you include 3 missing series 2 eps, the colour version of Room at The bottom and two Christmas Night inserts isnt bad going if you line DA up along with the likes of Dixon, Z Cars, Hancock and Steptoe).

The fact that attention is paid to the Dr Who releases is that a lot of it has been done by volunteers from what I understand don't get paid much, if at all, infact the likes of some of the more famous Who experts from what I can gather do it for the sheer love of the show.

Dad's Army at the same time does have its share of people in the know, but you have to bare in mind people have only really started researching it more intensely in the past 20 years, (there was no Richard webber or Graham McCann books to refer to before then). When I first started researching for a CD-Rom project at college 12 years ago on Dad's Army I had very little to go on except for Bill Pertwee's book and my own collection of video recordings from the 1980s.

I personally don't relish the thought of spending hours upon hours hassling TV stations over tapestock that I'm sure has been checked already when I could salvage a copy of John Le Mesurier on Desert Island Discs from off air sources, particularly when the three missing episodes could be locked in someone's garden shed waiting to be discovered.

I think the Dad's Army extras were a good attempt to put something together with the means available to the production team, I provided some clips of interviews which were used and I know Ralph did his best to source whatever he could.

At the end of the day there is very little available in the archives, so its down to people been willing to let parts of their collections be used as part of extras on DVD's without expecting financial gain.

I agree with Peter that Steptoe and Hancock should certainly get the same treatment, and in my opinion so should The two ronnies and Morecambe and Wise, but if people aren't forthcoming with clips, DVD extra's just won't happen.

[Peter Chadwick]

Jul 31, 2008 11:01:35 GMT Peter Elliott said:

The Dads Army b+w episodes rightly and deservedly were cleaned up and VidFired, but why weren't Steptoe and Son? Hancock? The Likely Lads? The DVDs of them could and should had been so much better. Such shows were far more popular than Who was in their heyday and are classic pieces of British TV history and I just think it's unfair that the same kind of love and care given to Who is rarely ever given to anything else.

Because they basically don't give a toss. It's the only explanation for the 80s edits of 'Hancock's Half Hour' and the chopped to bits versions of the two 'Steptoe And Son' Christmas episodes being issued. Some of the b/w Steptoe shows are appaling quality. It seems classic comedy is only treated as such if someone involved with the DVD has personal favourites. That's why I bought my Hancock and Steptoe DVDs second hand; I wasn't paying top-dollar prices for third-rate DVDs and have the BBC profit from it.

[Adrian Gregg]

I understand the whole "labor of love" Dr Who sentiment. and the DA dvd's are great. But with a book publishing details about a "lost" scene you'dd think someone would have looked it up. mabey some one did I just don't know..

Stepetoe,Hanckock.et all . these have to be worst transfers I've ever seen.. hell some I tapes of the TV 20 odd years ago look like there from a better print. (no not beacuse of VHS either) some epps really look better. so who was the monkey involved in this sham?. becasue there are loads of whoies that donate thier time for free isnt going to make a better Telecine of the print.

as for the extras on DA one of my bugbears was the fact we coudent See anything of the actors prior to DA.. we had a screengrab of james beck. but why oh why couldent we see like 30 seconds of him acting in something else. Again probally right's or somthing. If you are going to make a documentry about an actor and can provide nothing apart from thier apperances on the current disc you have in your hand.. what's the point. But it's still nice someone tried.. look for any doco's on steptoe!!!

we could have had commentrys by galton and simposon? could have eased the bitrate up a bit and split em over two discs.
could have had (ok ive not seen the "missing" colour dvd yet)
interviews with galton and simpson showing thier video recorder and mabey a shot of it in action. etc etc.. but if costs stop any of this happening. the Beeb Must have made something from the sales..
If Dr Who fans can get "new editions" of Already relesed dvd's (when someone finds something wrong) re-released. either the beebs full of who fans who like nothing but who, or dr who discs outsell everything else

[Dave Homewood]

Jul 31, 2008 8:26:31 GMT Adrian Gregg said:

But what is the truth on the survival of the colour series..
It's not spoken about on any of the DVD's im aware of.. (which is a shame)

Blimey, dr who fans know the bleedin tape stock used for each epp, how many prints went where and why. and for such a popular series as dad's army still is.. its very hard to get any info at all.

Information is out there on the lost episodes of Dad's Army, and also on recoveries, you just have to look in the right places.

My own website has a brief history of the lost episodes here
www.cambridgeairforce.org.nz/Dads%20Army%20Lost.html#other

The coloured episodes (and some black and whites) were recovered from Australia by David Croft by chance in the 1980's. Mum's Army was among them.

David and Jimmy wrote an entire book on the lost episodes with lots of background information. It was first published by Virgin in 1998, look it out, it's superb. Lots of info, photos and the scripts of the second series - long before the big script books came out.

As for the little peice that Carmen claimed to be on her tape, I wondered about that too and tried to find out more at the time. It may have been here on this very forum I enquired actually. I can't recall. I never did find out.

What bit of Battle of the Giants was found Andy? I know they recorded some bits on location that were cut in the editing process and never seen, they were discovered some years back from memory - or at least the UK DAAS were close on their trail, I cannot recall now. Tony Pritchard should know. The cut section is in Richard Webber's script book. Is that the bit you refer to? From memory it involved sheep in front of the van.

[Andy Howells]

You are quite correct Dave, theres a few sequences added - extended scenes during the actual film sequences, I believe Ralph and Kevin located these when making enquiries into what survived of original recorded film sequences, I think it was quite a shock when these turned up. The only piece that seems to be missing is some dialogue between Captain Square and Sergeant Wilson at the end of the scene when Captain Square asks for a drink. Apparently this was cut around a 1989 repeat and it was thought if anyone had a recording of this before then it may still be intact, however no-one was forthcoming with any recording.

There is also film footage taken from the clock tower showing the platoon ready to catch Jones as he hangs the flag on the mast, this green screen footage is included as an easter egg.

I did e-mail Ralph about the Mum's Army segment very early on, though i can't say if he chased it up as I only started helping out with suggestions around the third DVD release.

Whether or not it survives makes me wonder if the version Carmen had was a colour or Black and white version as wasnt the colour version lost for a period?

Possibly controversally and for me personally, I really dont think this clip would have added to the show at all, as Mum's Army is a very good episode with a very emotional ending for Mainwaring's character. Having the platoon witness him in a moment of emotional weakness isnt good and was probably rightly cut.