Concerning NZ's 'Lion' and 'the well has run dry'

[JOHN SMITH]

Correct me if I am wrong. But in the first place did Lion 'come from' (by one way or another) the storage facility that it was sent to after it was decided not to screen any parts of the story?? ???because available evidence seems to suggest this.

Now correct me if I am also wrong, but unless NZTV had a similar policy to the BBC (i.e junking their own old material) then NZTV probably did NOT have much BBC stuff at all to put into a skip or whatever at any given date and time.

So if Lion was somehow 'saved' from destruction (or simply stolen/sold from the storage facility directly before it even went into a skip) then the other 3 parts are strong candidates to still be out there too. ;D

I am sure I have seen somewhere that 'Lion' even came with an original film tin on which it is written that it was Ep 1 of Crusade.

But logic tells even an idiot that if they have just 'saved' 1 part from a skip, then the other parts MUST be in the SAME skip at the SAME time too so it is just a matter of pulling those film cans out as well (after all, if you are going to save 1 part, you might as well save the others at the same time) (and that is even IF the story was put into a skip in the first place, which is absolutely unknown other than by the person who 'supposedly' destroyed it, the person who saved it/stole it from the facility/or bought it from the facility)

And as pointed out, since it is quite possible (even probable) that not much film stuff was in the skip anyway at any given date and time then even if all 4 parts were actually put in there (which is a big if ) and the other 3 parts had come out of their tins and had 'unspooled' (which does NOT seem likely since Lion was in its tin and had obviously not had the 'middle' knocked out ;D) then it was just a question of pulling the other film material out and winding it all back up again, which is probably not that difficult a task if there is not a huge amount of film material in there to begin with ;D ;D

Since it is known that there are a number of NZ collectors in particular who are reluctant to give anything back, or even admit that they have anything (other than to their own very close knit and VERY trusted group), what is the probability that the other 3 parts of Crusade are therefore still in private hands in NZ? ;D ;DKnocking around with 16mm copies of Lion that might have been made in the meantime in order to keep it 'complete as 16mm prints'.

After its return, I also seem to recall reading that Lion was sold (albeit INCREDIBLY quietly) a number of times during the years. How on Earth is this known ? Because I'm guessing that none if its previous owners will have written their names etc on the tin. Can it be traced back somehow to its 'first owner'?

Given the circumstances surrounding Lion, and its eventual return, I would STRONGLY suggest that the other 3 parts (1 of which we don't need anyway) are still in NZ. Along with 'other episodes that NZ still held instead of bicycling on to another country', because evidence seems to suggest that NZ did NOT practive 'the return' of obsolete prints to the BBC.

BTW on a different forum I read a very recent posting by Ian Levine stating that there are simply no more missing episodes at all to be found because 'the well has run dry'

Well, bearing in mind that Ian is one of only a few people in the world to have ever seen and scrutinised the 16mm BBC Enterprises index cards for the original 16mm prints of every Dr Who story. He must therefore have known/seen whether or not DMP2 was listed as 'junked/destroyed'. And yet even before DMP2 was returned, he stated publicly that there were no more missing episodes left, which is strange on 2 points.

1: He got a VERY good look at DMP's index cards because he quite categorically said that DMP7 was not amongst them.
2 By simply seeing (all) the cards all those years ago he must have KNOWN (unless Pamela Nash was simply being economical with the truth and writing 'junked' on index cards for prints which she could not find) that DMP2 was still 'unaccounted for' (And in all probability at LEAST DMP4, 5, 10 too)

And let's face it, since the BBC seemed to be doing a good job with the junkings , there probably were not MANY index cards which showed that any particular print was 'unaccounted for'

Given such a 'small?' number (probably only Ian/Pamela/Sue Malden know the exact number of unaccounted for prints) any unaccounted for prints could have been quickly written on a piece of paper (thereby still leaving the index cards at enterprises) as being the ones to look out and search for.
But yet just before DMP2's return, here we had Ian stating that no more episodes were to be found. Strange that isn't it.

[JOHN SMITH]

Yes I know that some countries sent back Dr Who prints AFTER the effort to save them was under way (probably because the BBC offered to pay the postage). But is there ANY evidence to suggest that ANY country actually sent back a print/prints to the BBC just in order to be 'junked' ??


Logic says why bother with postage costs, just to destroy a print when it is obviously cheaper to destroy it in the country where it currently resides.
Which being the case, as outlined in the main posting above, quite a number of countries who were 'supposed' to have junked their prints, may have had 'little or no other prints in the skip too' (even IF they made it to the skip in the first place, which again is a BIG if. "Oh honey, I was supposed to destroy some film prints of Dr Who today, but I know how much Simon loves watching the programme, so guess what, I've brought them home instead ). Which would give HUGE hope (as outlined in the case of NZ) for the recovery of 'other missing stories'.

[Richard Bignell]

Jul 11, 2008 11:32:57 GMT JOHN SMITH said:

So if Lion was somehow 'saved' from destruction (or simply stolen/sold from the storage facility directly before it even went into a skip) then the other 3 parts are strong candidates to still be out there too. ;D

Nope. Only one collector managed to save any film that was being dumped from the Harriet Street film store and the list he made of the 321 items he salvaged only shows one episode of Doctor Who amongst them - The Lion.

I'd suggest you read the following.

nzdwfc.tetrap.com/archive/tsv57/lion.html

Given the circumstances surrounding Lion, and its eventual return, I would STRONGLY suggest that the other 3 parts (1 of which we don't need anyway) are still in NZ.

There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that they are.

Along with 'other episodes that NZ still held instead of bicycling on to another country', because evidence seems to suggest that NZ did NOT practive 'the return' of obsolete prints to the BBC.

As NZBC were a primary customer of BBC material, they made sure that they followed Enterprises requests, and we know that they bicycled material on when requested and provided signed affidavits as to the disposal of other material.

Richard

[Alex Dering]

This brings to mind one question:

Pretend you're the person is charge of junking the episodes. You go into the archive and you grab episode 4 of Tenth Planet and episode 7 of Dalek Masterplan. You toss them in a bin that you've set aside for just such a purpose. Turn to your index cards, check off the right boxes and then you answer the phone, and you send out a letter, and then it's time for lunch. You come back from lunch and junk a few more episodes, bring in all the forms to the "correct person" who asks you "So, you've thrown them out?" "Yes, they're in a box by my desk. I'll leave them in the loading dock Dumpster when I clock out tonight."

Now, really, how many opportunities would there be for someone to help themselves? If the right person were there -- say a film buff -- quite a few episodes could have been rescued. I understand about copyright and disposal procedures and so forth, but come on. I think most of us have worked in an office with "strict" procedures about material leaving the building. Don't tell me we couldn't all, if so inclined, walk out the door with anything under the size of a toaster oven.

Now, repeat that everywhere copies went out to. In some TV studio in Canada, I can clearly imagine someone dropping a few copies off on a secretary's desk: "Joan, please junk these. We aren't going to use them." And Joan says to herself, "Oh, Doctor Who. My son loves these. No one's going to mind. It's not like he's going to be charging admission for them ..."

I really wonder if anyone's undertaken a polite, carefully organized attempt to contact the office staff in these countries. We only need there to have been one obsessive janitor who just couldn't stand to see all those films being thrown away.

My biggest fear is that in the next 10 years, any of the younger people who were working in these places will be dying off, and their relatives will come to the boxes in the attic and go, "Old film? Well, toss these in the trash..."

I still have hope.

[JOHN SMITH]

Jul 11, 2008 12:17:09 GMT Richard Bignell said:

Jul 11, 2008 11:32:57 GMT JOHN SMITH said:

So if Lion was somehow 'saved' from destruction (or simply stolen/sold from the storage facility directly before it even went into a skip) then the other 3 parts are strong candidates to still be out there too. ;D

Nope. Only one collector managed to save any film that was being dumped from the Harriet Street film store and the list he made of the 321 items he salvaged only shows one episode of Doctor Who amongst them - The Lion.

I'd suggest you read the following.

nzdwfc.tetrap.com/archive/tsv57/lion.html


There's absolutely no evidence to suggest that they are.

Along with 'other episodes that NZ still held instead of bicycling on to another country', because evidence seems to suggest that NZ did NOT practive 'the return' of obsolete prints to the BBC.

As NZBC were a primary customer of BBC material, they made sure that they followed Enterprises requests, and we know that they bicycled material on when requested and provided signed affidavits as to the disposal of other material.

Richard

Fascinating article. But it does PROVE my point. Even with signed affadavits to say that they had been destroyed, prints are still in existence. And if it happened 'that' time in NZ what is to say that it didn't happen on other occasions in NZ or elsewhere too. How many 'other times' did 'that' driver let people 'buy' films that were being junked. And there's evidence (at least in England) that the skip guys even took the films home themselves.

[JOHN SMITH]

Jul 11, 2008 12:56:58 GMT Alex Dering said:

This brings to mind one question:

Pretend you're the person is charge of junking the episodes. You go into the archive and you grab episode 4 of Tenth Planet and episode 7 of Dalek Masterplan. You toss them in a bin that you've set aside for just such a purpose. Turn to your index cards, check off the right boxes and then you answer the phone, and you send out a letter, and then it's time for lunch. You come back from lunch and junk a few more episodes, bring in all the forms to the "correct person" who asks you "So, you've thrown them out?" "Yes, they're in a box by my desk. I'll leave them in the loading dock Dumpster when I clock out tonight."

Now, really, how many opportunities would there be for someone to help themselves? If the right person were there -- say a film buff -- quite a few episodes could have been rescued. I understand about copyright and disposal procedures and so forth, but come on. I think most of us have worked in an office with "strict" procedures about material leaving the building. Don't tell me we couldn't all, if so inclined, walk out the door with anything under the size of a toaster oven.

Now, repeat that everywhere copies went out to. In some TV studio in Canada, I can clearly imagine someone dropping a few copies off on a secretary's desk: "Joan, please junk these. We aren't going to use them." And Joan says to herself, "Oh, Doctor Who. My son loves these. No one's going to mind. It's not like he's going to be charging admission for them ..."

I really wonder if anyone's undertaken a polite, carefully organized attempt to contact the office staff in these countries. We only need there to have been one obsessive janitor who just couldn't stand to see all those films being thrown away.

My biggest fear is that in the next 10 years, any of the younger people who were working in these places will be dying off, and their relatives will come to the boxes in the attic and go, "Old film? Well, toss these in the trash..."

I still have hope.

I would think that the next 10 to 20 years could be the MOST productive as far as returned prints of lost Dr Who are concerned.

[JOHN SMITH]

The 'history' of the Lion print also goes to show that many collectors don't even seem to know the value of what they have got in their collections. Many may not even remember that they bought a Dr Who print, let alone that they still have it.
And it also goes to show that once it's been given to the BBC and distributed on DVD, that the rarity factor instantly disappears and what was once something of great value and rarity instantly becomes practically worthless.
I'm sure the Lion would have raised far far far more if it had been sold knowingly as a missing episode before being given to the BBC.
And that's where the problem lies now doesn't it, what collector in their right mind, knowing that they have something very valuable, is going to loan what they have got to the BBC (or what they paid a huge amount of money for) and thus make the value of what they have got (paid for) worthless??
Far better to keep it, sell it quietly, and you get to keep your profit, unlike Grenville who would have even made a loss on his.

[Alex Dering]

"And that's where the problem lies now doesn't it, what collector in their right mind, knowing that they have something very valuable, is going to loan what they have got to the BBC (or what they paid a huge amount of money for) and thus make the value of what they have got (paid for) worthless??"

Exactly right. This is why I say the BBC has simply got to offer something NON-MONETARY. You've got the Feast of Steven? Have you got a grandchild? What? Four grandchildren? We'll give each one of them a visible, non-speaking role in an episode of Doctor Who. You can't buy that. Even if you sell the tape after that, you're going to sell it to someone who wants that opportunity for themselves or their grandchildren.

I realize the BBC can't get into a bidding war on these things. It would lose anyway. And maybe someone doesn't want a walk-on in Doctor Who. Maybe they want an ITV role. God Almighty, I've got to think that even ITV would say "Okay, we'll do it. For England! God save the Queen!"

[Steven Sigel]

Your premise assumes that all that collectors are out for is to make a profit.
While it is true that some people have this mindset, it is decidedly not true of many.

I personally have returned a number of missing films to the BBC (which I could have sold on ebay instead) and so did the consortium of people who bought the Z-Cars episodes for a lot of money on ebay and then immediately let the BBC borrow and copy them. Why? Because we want the shows to be available for the future...

Dr. Who prints of existing episodes are far from worthless -- they sell for a substantial amount of money on ebay and elsewhere.

[Richard Bignell]

Jul 11, 2008 13:43:40 GMT JOHN SMITH said:

Fascinating article. But it does PROVE my point. Even with signed affadavits to say that they had been destroyed, prints are still in existence.

*A* print is in existence. One that was being officially disposed of. It just happened to be purloined before it ended up buried by landfill. Just because it happened once, it doesn't follow that it happened any other time.

And it certainly doesn't prove that the others are still around somewhere.

And there's evidence (at least in England) that the skip guys even took the films home themselves.

What evidence?!! I've certainly never heard of any.

Richard

[Rich Cornock]

hmm lots of supposition here but very little fact

[JOHN SMITH]

Jul 11, 2008 16:27:06 GMT Steven Sigel said:

Your premise assumes that all that collectors are out for is to make a profit.
While it is true that some people have this mindset, it is decidedly not true of many.

I personally have returned a number of missing films to the BBC (which I could have sold on ebay instead) and so did the consortium of people who bought the Z-Cars episodes for a lot of money on ebay and then immediately let the BBC borrow and copy them. Why? Because we want the shows to be available for the future...

Dr. Who prints of existing episodes are far from worthless -- they sell for a substantial amount of money on ebay and elsewhere.

Film collecting is similar to the collecting of comics.
Ian Levine is one of only 2 known people in the world with a complete collection of EVERY distributed (as opposed to giveaway) DC Comic. (The other is a female heiress of Pepsi) When he had just finished his collection a couple of years ago, and was very proud of his achievement, one of the questions he was asked on a comics forum was along the lines of 'would you sell the collection for 10 million ? (forget whether it was dollars or pounds)
Now bear in mind that Ian has been collecting these comics for decades, but he answered that at long as he could keep about 4 of the comics, which he considers to be the rarest (not necessarily most expensive, but just that there are so few copies of them left in existence that they almost never come up for sale) then he would sell his collection for 10 million and start it all over again. One of the ones he would keep by the way is valued at ONLY 4 dollars by the back issue comics' 'bible'.

That's why it is almost never that sales of lost Who occur with the knowledge of fandom. (IF, any are left in private hands to begin with, and generally, even many doubters about whether or not any more lost episodes will turn up, believe that there are probably a few left privately)

The print of any lost episode is realistically the only one left in existence and is therefore utterly unique. So unless an absolutely ridiculous sum is offered by a fellow collector who happens to know that they have got 1, or maybe even more than 1, then they just don't want to part with it/them.

[JOHN SMITH]

Jul 11, 2008 16:34:02 GMT Richard Bignell said:

Jul 11, 2008 13:43:40 GMT JOHN SMITH said:

Fascinating article. But it does PROVE my point. Even with signed affadavits to say that they had been destroyed, prints are still in existence.

*A* print is in existence. One that was being officially disposed of. It just happened to be purloined before it ended up buried by landfill. Just because it happened once, it doesn't follow that it happened any other time.

And it certainly doesn't prove that the others are still around somewhere.

Hmm, if it did not happen at ANY other time, then what about all 4 episodes of Time Meddler that were not from Nigeria. What about Faceless Ones, Evil Of The Daleks etc etc.

ANY print from private hands is a print that was 'supposedly' destroyed and signed to say so. So unless you know something that we don't about all the other private lost episode returns.
ALL of those therefore belong to the same example as Lion. Purloined from a skip (or by any other means) before the tin hit landfill.

[Richard Bignell]

Jul 11, 2008 19:43:08 GMT JOHN SMITH said:

ANY print from private hands is a print that was 'supposedly' destroyed and signed to say so.

Except you're using what happened in NZ as being a blanket generalisation as to what must have happened in every other case. But given that you don't know the detailed back history of every print that's been found in private hands, you can't make that assertion.

As rich the farmer said, it's just all supposition.

Richard

[Alex Dering]

The print of any lost episode is realistically the only one left in existence and is therefore utterly unique. So unless an absolutely ridiculous sum is offered by a fellow collector who happens to know that they have got 1, or maybe even more than 1, then they just don't want to part with it/them.

First, yes, that's a pretty fair assessment.
Second, there are several significant exceptions to it, though.

a. The holder of a rarity (a uniquity?) could have a sudden unavoidable need to raise cash and sell the item to a fellow fan. Now, keep in mind, if you're that "gotta sell it fast for cash" person, you quite possibly will deliberately sell it to someone you know is going to turn it over to the BBC (otherwise, won't it eat you alive to know that other person holds it).

b. If the holder copies and THEN sells the uniquity, condition a still holds. If the buyer finds out about the non-uniquity of his purchase, he might deliberately give it to the BBC for spite at that point.

c. Another possibility. The original holder dies and his family discovers the items in question and sell it. Or do the "right thing" and return it to the BBC.

d. Occasionally, people just up and grow tired of hobbies. Even hobbies they've expended great amounts of money and time to. Someone might just say, oh well, I'm a grown man now, I should really stop fiddling around with old black-and-white films from the '60s and give 'em back to people who can restore them. God knows my family won't know what to do with them.

e. The holder of a Doctor Who uniquity might trade for something extra-special in the hands of another fan (who would return the episode afterward). For instance (entirely made up but it's just for the example): Say Mark Hamill was a big Doctor Who fan and decided to offer up one of the two Tatooine outfits he wore in the original Star Wars for the only known copy of Missing Episode Whatever. Trading in a crappy old bit of film for an original Star Wars outfit? I think a read Fanboy would consider it for a while and then make the trade.