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Tiswas
Apr 17, 2004 11:50:38 GMT
Post by DS on Apr 17, 2004 11:50:38 GMT
I think branding, generic schedules and strategies are absolutely irrelevant, really and meant nothing to children in previous eras. As a kid I loved the regional ITV differences and delighted in switching from Granada to ATV and HTV to see what I could find - but the good ITV stuff was networked. Everything from the luxurious film series' to the fantasies to the sitcoms were seen everywhere, and there was even a high quality junior TV Times, Look-In, to promote them. The 100 Best Children's list means nothing as it was fixed and not put together by a knowledgable crew (they originally had the likes of Star Trek in there) - and many kids missed out on ITV because, in the 70s and before, many parents forbade them from watching the channel, making them stick with the cosy and trusted BBC. BBC things often stick in the memory because they were repeated ad infinitum through the generations. Constancy is what they provided, certainly; their shows tended to run forever (Animal Magic, Take Hart and their dull, twee like), whereas ITV continually kept coming up with new material. Shadows only lasted three series', Nobody's House, Soldier and Me, The Further Adventures of Oliver Twist, Hold The Front Page, Funny Ha Ha and King of the Castle only one, but that says nothing whatsoever about their quality or invention - nor does the fact that they weren't presented in a branded schedule with Philip Schofield and assorted gonks presenting them from a broom cupboard. Does the BBC's output: Potter's Picture Palace, Bonnie, Samuel Tweet, really stick in the collective mind more? I'm giving you examples of the wide range of inventive and expensive public service style broadcasting that ITV provided for children. I've also stated that the BBC children's schedule was motored by cheapness - "ancient repeats of Champion, Whirlybirds, Double Deckers, Monkees, imported cheap creaky old fillers (Often in black and white) and 18 year old Hanna Barbera cartoons, plus a minimal amount of programmes for pre-adolescents that were repeated until they turned orange" (ie a handful of episodes of the likes of Mr Benn that were shown endlessly, while ITV were commited to new programmes for little kids daily; from Pipkins and Rainbow to all the series' by Cosgrove Hall and onwards, all new, every year. Which of these facts exactly are you disagreeing with - I have old Radio and TV Times schedules to back me up.
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Tiswas
Apr 17, 2004 15:14:15 GMT
Post by Andy Henderson on Apr 17, 2004 15:14:15 GMT
You can list ITV programmes:
'ITV's commitment to quality children's TV far surpassed it; Adventures of Black Beauty, Follyfoot, Soldier and Me, Worzel Gummidge, Swiss Family Robinson, Shadows, Raven, Famous Five, Children of the Stones, Clifton House Mystery, Clapperboard, The Paper Lads, and on and on -the brand new drama, comedy, magazine and fantasy series every week were enormous, and often they were cutting edge and daring.'
And anyone on this site could equally quote BBC Children's Drama:
The Srecret Garden, Children of Green Knowe, Lizzy Dripping, Joe and the Gladiator, Lion the With and Wardrobe, Box of Delights, The Changes, Grange Hill, Railway Children, Running Scared, Carrie's War, The Phoenix and the Egg, Byker Grove, Stranger on the Shore, God's Wonderful Railway, Moon Stallion, Mandog
and the specialist programmes which virtually had no ITV equal
Newsround, Record Breakers, Vision On, Play School, Play Away, Jackanory, We Are the Champions, Screen Test, Crackerjack etc
Samueil Tweet wasn't high art, but neither was Pardon My Genie!
The merits of TISWAS were ground breaking but were mostly conveyed to a cult following and the programme did have (to an adult) cool guests, but it increasingly did not cater for the target audience.
SWAP SHOP was mild by comparison, but it did have the merit of involving the viewer in participation. These b/w fillers you mention were mostly Summer Holiday and repeat fillers. ITV could dish up some amazingly dire filler material too. Witness constant re-runs of Tarzan etc.
What I am stating here are observations!
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Tiswas
Apr 17, 2004 15:26:43 GMT
Post by Dale Rumbold on Apr 17, 2004 15:26:43 GMT
Conversely who is really that bothered about Grange Hill coming out or not? Me. GH is the greatest ever TV show, bar none. It has, of course, been ruined by the mad scouser over the last 2 years, but prior to that it was untouchable as children or adult drama.
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Tiswas
Apr 17, 2004 17:40:46 GMT
Post by DS on Apr 17, 2004 17:40:46 GMT
"The merits of TISWAS were ground breaking but were mostly conveyed to a cult following and the programme did have (to an adult) cool guests, but it increasingly did not cater for the target audience. "
The guests were pretty cool to us kids, too - I remember it as constantly having the best pop guests (and kids loved the likes of the Pythons, too) and found it catered to us perfectly. That's why people have *passionate* memories of the show - check out the likes of the TV Cream tribute pages. It was pipping and overtaking Swap Shop in popularity circa 1980-81, so not so 'cult.' That's a title people have attached to it in recent years on knowing TV Top Ten-type programmes. It was never a cult show - it was a massively popular children's programme.
It involved us in participation to the degree that it had continual competitions and encouragement to send in things you'd done and made, though it didn't have the laborious rituals of top ten swopping boards and the like - but it was mainly entertainment. (It also pioneered the live Saturday morning phone-in participation prior to Swap Shop.)
"These b/w fillers you mention were mostly Summer Holiday and repeat fillers. ITV could dish up some amazingly dire filler material too. Witness constant re-runs of Tarzan etc."
But a typical week on BBC children's TV during the Tiswas era would frequently have, as its central programme (the 4.45-5.10pm slot, often just preceded by a 25 minute repeat of the day's Play School and a 15 year old Huckleberry Hound repeat), a 15 year old Lippy the Lion show, a ten year old Monkees, an eight year old Double Deckers or an Asterix the Gaul or a repeat of a Lassie's Rescue Rangers or Space Sentinels dire import cartoon. Often, every single children's BBC programme of the week was a repeat. ITV had new drama, new comedy, all year round and often top class stuff.
When Swap Shop went off the air, it was replaced by '30s Flash Gordon serials and silent Charlie Chaplins!
"What I am stating here are observations!"
Yes, and it's a much cherised predjudice and oft-stated cliche that ITV didn't care about or bother with good children's programmes, and it's an unfair one that the evidence doesn't bear out. In the 70s and early 80s at least, it provided a far superior - and much more public service style - service.
(Incidentally, many of the BBC series' you mention are well after the Tiswas era we're talking about; the Lion ... being as late as 1988 (and typically BBC twee-and-dated), Byker Grove 1989, Green Knowe 1986, Running Scared 1986. I'll be the first to admit that through the 80s, the BBC children's service got better and better leaving behind its shoddy 70s programming, and is presently probably the best it's ever been.
Two final points:
1. Clapperboard knocked Screen Test into a cocked hat.
2. I loved Samuel Tweet - of course it was high art!
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Tiswas
Apr 17, 2004 17:46:47 GMT
Post by DS on Apr 17, 2004 17:46:47 GMT
"GH is the greatest ever TV show, bar none. It has, of course, been ruined by the mad scouser over the last 2 years, but prior to that it was untouchable as children or adult drama"
I think you should give it another go - the scripting on the show has been superb recently. I'd put the last series on a par with the Gripper/racism era as an all time Grange Hill high. Once you get into the new 'film' look and the racier pacing, the current Grange Hill is the best it's been for many years.
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Tiswas
Apr 18, 2004 10:37:35 GMT
Post by Dale Rumbold on Apr 18, 2004 10:37:35 GMT
I still watch it, but don't approve of the relocation from London to Liverpool (though, of course, never mentioned by the cast) nor the complete change of teaching staff. And I particularly dislike the infantile opening credits and use of the 'ruler' noise throughout. Anyone would think it's a children's programme ....
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Tiswas
Apr 18, 2004 10:40:44 GMT
Post by DS on Apr 18, 2004 10:40:44 GMT
I thought the new opening credit scene was great!
A short while ago, Grange Hill seemed to focus more around the shopping mall and kids' homes, with the school not getting much of a look in at all. I think it's really found itself again now, focused firmly back on the school and school activities. The cast seem the best there's been for a good while to me.
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Tiswas
Apr 18, 2004 16:12:14 GMT
Post by Westy 2 on Apr 18, 2004 16:12:14 GMT
We were double agents here - one of the first projects when we rented our new video recorder from DER was to tape Tiswas and watch Swap Shop (or vice versa) which is why I've got a few short bits on tape. The Tiswas is from the Gordon Astley era, mind........ Now did he 'drive away your boredom' ? 'When you wake up/ever(depending on the time of the radio show he did) feeling ghastly, tune to Gordon Astley !!' (I did see him a few years ago at a BBC West Midlands (let's get all the local presenters down the local carnival type) appearence. He was bald, 'cos he was wearing a panama hat & a cream jacket!)
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Tiswas
Apr 19, 2004 16:32:50 GMT
Post by William Martin on Apr 19, 2004 16:32:50 GMT
panama hat & a cream jacket!) always a dead give away re tizwaz - rolling stones in the cage smoking pot, would never happen on swap shop
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Tiswas
Apr 19, 2004 18:25:50 GMT
Post by DS on Apr 19, 2004 18:25:50 GMT
"re tizwaz - rolling stones in the cage smoking pot, would never happen on swap shop"
Didn't happen on Tiswas either! I think it was a member of Led Zep ...
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Tiswas
Apr 21, 2004 16:46:44 GMT
Post by William Martin on Apr 21, 2004 16:46:44 GMT
they were so stoned they probably didn't know who they were anyway
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Tiswas
Apr 22, 2004 9:22:11 GMT
Post by Lesterl on Apr 22, 2004 9:22:11 GMT
Does that mean the `Phantom flan Flinger` has been wiped?
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Tiswas
Apr 22, 2004 13:02:20 GMT
Post by William on Apr 22, 2004 13:02:20 GMT
or wiped up
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Tiswas
Apr 23, 2004 10:32:40 GMT
Post by Lester on Apr 23, 2004 10:32:40 GMT
Does that mean the "Phantom Flan Flinger" has gone?....oops!....Ha! Ha!....missed me!!
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Tiswas
Apr 23, 2004 16:31:50 GMT
Post by William Martin on Apr 23, 2004 16:31:50 GMT
the masked poet?
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