Early Whistle test details and discrepancies

[John Stewart Miller]

I have the following details for early 'Old grey Whistle test' shows. Originally, missing entries were quoted (by Ann Nightingale in the 80s) as having 'been wiped. It was later said (Record collector); that the show went out as a live magazine in the early days, with some pre recorded material.

On one of the 'OGWT' DVDs, producer Michael appleton says that one act appearing on the show would be recorded on a taped session in the afternoon, with the second guesting as a live act later on transmission.

Studying holdings, I wonder at which stage this policy came into being? There are variations of this evident, in that edition 1 (21.9.71) features Lesley Duncan and America in session. As with edition 3 (12.10.71) (Lindisfarne and Wishbone Ash), clips of both session acts have been utilised in various retrospects.

When the archive gets to 16.11.71 (Mothers of invention, Jean Luc Ponty), the session material is quoted as having been wiped. Yet the piece is described as being a document on the making of '200 motels' with the band in this, and Zappa interviewed. A sub note says the Zappa interview survives as a 20 min film insert. Footage I've seen appears to be from this, on film stock with cameras in view filming '200 motels'; and Zappa interview footage used on the 'Late show' tribute special. I'd thus assume the 'Mothers of invention' are featured in the documentary segment, with the Luc Ponty being the lost (live) studio footage?

With some shows for which a session tape is earmarked as existing (i.e. 14.12.71 - Uriah heep 'look at yourself' and Colin Blunstone 'say you don't mind' or Buffe St Marie on 26.10.71); I've seen no material.

Obviously I'm interested as to what the situation may be.

As far as I can tell, the policy qouted by Appleton must come into play later, as with the earliest shows it seems to be a case of shows either being ALL live (bar bought in film); or if not taped off air, live with studio acts on a pre recorded tape. The only case I know of the session reels being released are where one has been accessioned for re use in a compilation (such as the Jim Croce and Rick Wakeman early sessions).

So where theres a session reel, what would it consist of, as I describe or otherwise?

[Laurence Piper]

I'd like to know what survives of the early OGWT too. Particularly things like the Sparks session, which is listed as being in the same show as Bill Withers (which does survive). The Kal listing is vague as it lists the featured acts alongside the edition but it doesn't say which of the acts survive and which don't (in the cases of where a studio session tape exists for the programme).

[Roger]

Laurence said:

I'd like to know what survives of the early OGWT too. Particularly things like the Sparks session, which is listed as being in the same show as Bill Withers (which does survive). The Kal listing is vague as it lists the featured acts alongside the edition but it doesn't say which of the acts survive and which don't (in the cases of where a studio session tape exists for the programme).

Where is this KAL listing? I feel like drooling a bit I heard PATTO was on Old Grey Whistle Test...anyone heard this as well?

[Stephen Doran]

mike patto from timebox?

[Roger]

Yeap, that mike PATTO! Timebox evolved into the band Patto as they became more "progressive".

I recently got a hold of PATTO on 'Beat Club' which may be the only clip that survived of them.

PATTO supposedly did an Old Grey Whistle Test, and a French TV special.

[williamM]

Roger said:

Yeap, that mike PATTO! Timebox evolved into the band Patto as they became more "progressive".

I recently got a hold of PATTO on 'Beat Club' which may be the only clip that survived of them.

PATTO supposedly did an Old Grey Whistle Test, and a French TV special.

when you say ogwit and a french special, do you mean a joint program or 2 seperate shows?(I assume you mean 2 separate ones though, ps this is not intended to be sarcastic)

[John Stewart Miller]

Roger said:

Yeap, that mike PATTO! Timebox evolved into the band Patto as they became more "progressive".

I recently got a hold of PATTO on 'Beat Club' which may be the only clip that survived of them.

PATTO supposedly did an Old Grey Whistle Test, and a French TV special.

I think this was an appearence on 'LATE NIGHT LINE UP PRESENTS - COLOUR ME POP' (THE TIME BOX) 1968. It's a missing one (or wiped).

[John Stewart Miller]

Roger said:

Yeap, that mike PATTO! Timebox evolved into the band Patto as they became more "progressive".

I recently got a hold of PATTO on 'Beat Club' which may be the only clip that survived of them.

PATTO supposedly did an Old Grey Whistle Test, and a French TV special.

P.S. PATTO not listed on any of the session acts for OGWT 1971 - 79. Implies either an insert from something else or one of the other BBC shows that period; as mentioned 'COLOUR ME POP', 'HOW IT IS' 1968, 'HOW LATE IT IS' 1969, 'DISCO 2' 1970 - 71

[Laurence Piper]

Yes, just checked. Patto were on Disco 2 in 1970 (non-existent though).

[John Stewart Miller]

Laurence said:

Yes, just checked. Patto were on Disco 2 in 1970 (non-existent though).

Thought so - thanks Laurence.

[thread resurrection]

[thread resurrection]

[Roger]

Thanks for the info!

Wow, I was just looking at some of the artists on Disco 2...I've never seen anything of this show...does any of it exisit??

[Laurence Piper]

Only 2 complete editions (one in b/w) and some insert tapes. Tragic.

[John S Miller]

This thread was ressurected some time ago, but I now have sufficient information to add to my own point and original queries for the benefit of other enquirers.

Record collector seems to state 'only music articles survive - the linking material was not recorded during live transmission'. This is confusing as in their general article ab asterisk indicates 'shows that have been wiped from the BBC archive'. Either they mean the first edition to which the first statement applies, or they're contradicting a general statement about the series. like Anne Nuightingales comment in the 80s archive revews, this would according to producer Michael Appletons comments on the OGWT DVDs as being erroneous.

Appleton states that 'the shows were live but they pushed to try and get them reorded where possible'. Noteably, often a previous act (i.e. Judee Sill) would be asked back in future when the following appearence would be recorded.

For shows 1 and 2, apparently Richard Williams was away on honeymoon. As a result, for show 1, Appleton said a slow fade and mix on the roll out from one item to another would be played back to back; and during the fade Appleton welcomed the audience and introduced the next items on a voiced over live commentary. Richard Williams had been pre filmed at tyhe NFT in a 12 minute look at their rock film festival, and someone called Ian Whitcomb did some interviews (he shared the slot with Williams in series 1); on pre recorded inserts. I think Mike Appleton mentioned that show 2 followed the same format but with Whitcomb doing voiceover.

As far as I can tell, the infax holdings seem to indicate most of the content existing. this is a combination of the pre filmed articles and session tapes, plus filmfinders films to Alice Cooper and Alice Stuart. Theoretically, it would be possible therefore to get Appleton to recreate his voice over on the links and reconstuct episode 1 ?

For show 2, very little material appears to exist though. The Jack bruce band appeared live and all thet's documented are two tracks (not singles, alas); by Cat Stevens. (The session appears on the DVD 'Majikat').

Jack Bruce band reappeared in a special concert programme in 1975. This appeared to draw upon both material from his new L.P. 'Out of the storm' with tracks probably played in previous session from the 70 - 71 period albums.

Mike Appletons comment that 'one act was pre recorded in the afternoon the second in the evening went out live' was not a hard and fast rule. For a number of shows in series 1 (i.e. 9/11/71 - Gordon Giltrap + Alice Cooper; 30/11/71 - Emitt Rhodes + The Move; andthe show featuring Wishbone Ash + Lindisfarne), both sessions exist.

Sometimes the solo artist (i.e. Buffy St Marie 26.10.71) went out live with the band being prerecorded (also for the first Ralph McTell session 2/11/71). At other times the solo artist was pre recorded, and the band live (Colin Blunstone session on 14.12.71 - Uriah Heep playing 'look at yourself' went out live).

Record collector alledges around 6 shows I think which 'were wiped'. For these one is listed (Jan. 73) as being 'Rick Wiseman' (misprint for Wakeman); leading to speculation his '6 wives' session had been wiped.

In fact, the Wakeman cut for Jan. 73 was 'Catherine of Aragon' played to a filmfinders film.

The Wakeman session fo two tracks seems to be a special sesction for the 'Yes in concert' programme later in 1973, listed as pt 2 of a 2 part Whistle test show, which exists. this explains how I've seen clips.

It does appear possible that some VT reels reused for the 'end of the year review' (i.e. Jim Croce session 1) were released after their use in these as sometimes 1 of 2 session tracks (i.e. Roxy music session 1) exist only, apparently.

The 'Kaleidoscope' and Infax catalogues sometimes seem to clash. One show I query is the Humble Pie appearence and Roxy Music session 2 (1973). Infax lists sufficient material; (loads!); to imply the whole Humkble pie show exists yet only inserts for Roxy music. Kaleidoscope seemed to list the opposite.

Anyway, more on this update when I have time.

[Deleted]

Any idea which OGWT editions were supposedly wiped, John? As I understand it, all that was originally recorded off-air as PasBs (or pre-recorded as inserts) still survives. Possible exceptions to this general rule though could possibly be end of year specials early on, which maybe featured parts of now missing regular shows (although if such material was included in these specials, this would confirm that other early material was also recorded at some point to be available for inclusion but later wiped). I can find no reference to any end of year compilations being transmitted in the Kal guide though.

Also, Kal lists a few late missing shows (e.g. a few from late '74 and the 20/12/77 edition, which go against the general trend of an almost total survival rate by this time). The Kal and Infax listings need to be pulled together as one and faults ironed out.

Can anyone say though if the 21/11/72 Sparks session survives (and which tracks were performed)? That's a personal query of mine that i've been wanting to get to the bottom of for ages!