Hows was TOTP played out ?

[Clive]

Having just had a look at that possible picture of David Bowies TOTP performance, it looks like it may have come from a suppressed frame TR, which got me wondering. As TOTP was recorded on a Wednesday and played out on a Thursday, from what media did the BBC play out from ? Did they do a copy to videotape for the first broadcast and do a TR for the archives, oversea sales ? I guess if it was video tape than the same physical tape would have been used week after week.

Therefore in regards to the Bowie Screengrab I would guess that this is either a doctored still picture or someone (at least in the early 70's) did have a TR of the performance, as I guess the BBC would have had no reason to broadcast the TR of his performance for someone to take a telesnap from.

[David Brunt]

Guest-Clive said:

Having just had a look at that possible picture of David Bowies TOTP performance, it looks like it may have come from a suppressed frame TR, which got me wondering.

Looks more like an off-screen photo of the transmission that's been copied very badly...

As TOTP was recorded on a Wednesday and played out on a Thursday, from what media did the BBC play out from ?

AFAIR most shows were still being broadcast live into the early 1970s so it's rather a moot point

Did they do a copy to videotape for the first broadcast and do a TR for the archives, oversea sales ? I guess if it was video tape than the same physical tape would have been used week after week.

I rather doubt that the same tape would be wiped that quickly, they'd have held on to it for several months at least - especially if they needed to reuse performances. Nothing to discount the idea that they kept shows from one year to the end, for possible use in the Xmas show.

And, of course, some of the shows may not have been recorded in any case.

We know for definite that mass junkings of archive tapes ended around June 1978, and there's the significant fact that tape survival pretty well begins from around a year earlier (aside from a small number of isolated examples up to 1976 - who can tell how or why they slipped through the net). I'd hazard a guess that there was a 12-month ruling of TOTP shows being wiped.

Therefore in regards to the Bowie Screengrab I would guess that this is either a doctored still picture or someone (at least in the early 70's) did have a TR of the performance, as I guess the BBC would have had no reason to broadcast the TR of his performance for someone to take a telesnap from.

I'm sure I saw part of that performance in an old 1970s Bowie docu. Can't for the life of me think what one though.

[Clive]

Thanks for the info, however I got the impression from that Ken Pitt quote in the Bowie thread that the transmission wasn't live - "Several run-throughs were made, but Gus felt that the one used on the transmission was not the best."

I've seen a colour promotional film for the 1969 version of Space Oddity, but I do not know who used this.

[David Brunt]

Guest-Clive said:

Thanks for the info, however I got the impression from that Ken Pitt quote in the Bowie thread that the transmission wasn't live - "Several run-throughs were made, but Gus felt that the one used on the transmission was not the best."

They'd have made several rehearsals of the show in the hours leading up to transmission. Might possibly refer to those.

Though this really sounds like it was a pre-recorded insert to me. i.e. different studio, no audience, retakes.

< shrug >

[Peter]

David said:

Looks more like an off-screen photo of the transmission that's been copied very badly...



AFAIR most shows were still being broadcast live into the early 1970s so it's rather a moot point



I rather doubt that the same tape would be wiped that quickly, they'd have held on to it for several months at least - especially if they needed to reuse performances. Nothing to discount the idea that they kept shows from one year to the end, for possible use in the Xmas show.

And, of course, some of the shows may not have been recorded in any case.

We know for definite that mass junkings of archive tapes ended around June 1978, and there's the significant fact that tape survival pretty well begins from around a year earlier (aside from a small number of isolated examples up to 1976 - who can tell how or why they slipped through the net). I'd hazard a guess that there was a 12-month ruling of TOTP shows being wiped.



I'm sure I saw part of that performance in an old 1970s Bowie docu. Can't for the life of me think what one though.

David, I think the Bowie documentary you refer to was probably 'Cracked Actor' which has been repeated fairly regulalry on satellite over the last few years. Wish I'd taped it now!.

[Ian West]

Guest-Peter said:

David, I think the Bowie documentary you refer to was probably 'Cracked Actor' which has been repeated fairly regulalry on satellite over the last few years. Wish I'd taped it now!.

I don't remember anything like that in Cracked Actor, which consisted almost entirely of footage shot for the documentary IIRC. It does feature Space Oddity, I believe, but only in concert from the then-current Diamond Dogs tour. I've got it on tape somewhere, so I'll watch it again to check when I get a chance.

[Laurence Piper]

David said:

AFAIR most shows were still being broadcast live into the early 1970s so it's rather a moot point

TOTP was being pre-recorded on video as early as 1966 regularly, although not all the time at this stage. Sometimes the shows were taped as they went out (if they were live - this seems to have been standard for TOTP as the occasional P as B document makes reference to an occasional faulty recording being made (and presumably therefore not re-useable). By 1970, it was usually pre-recorded (mostly the day before). This info comes from the P as Bs at Caversham.

I've always wondered myself how long / why any given edition of TOTP was kept at the time. Evidence suggests that they were at least kept for a time. I wonder if this was standard policy or whether a "holding order" was placed on them for forseen sale / re-use?

For instance, would they all have been kept for up to at least a year? Surely so as no one would be able to see forward in time to that years' Xmas show to know whether or not that particular artist would be available to perform the song again (and therefore whether or not a clip of the song needed to be retained just in case). Some Xmas shows do include repeats of past clips sometimes, which seems to back this idea up.

Also, even with "non-number 1 material", missing TOTP clips turned up on Beat Club many months after original transmission (e.g. Bobbie Gentry "Raindrop Keep Falling On My Head", which comes from a Feb 1970 TOTP only makes a German appearance in early '71 - almost a year later, so the master must have still been around to access). This suggests all material was retained for a year or so (maybe not much longer though as the "Ten Years Of TOTP" show in '73 has very little in the way of older material that doesn't still exist now).

[David Brunt]

Guest-Laurence said:

TOTP was being pre-recorded on video as early as 1966 regularly, although not all the time at this stage. Sometimes the shows were taped as they went out (if they were live - this seems to have been standard for TOTP as the occasional P as B document makes reference to an occasional faulty recording being made (and presumably therefore not re-useable).

Or even as early as 1964 if you count the BBC Wales(and Scotland IIRC) opt-out slots. Probably land-line recordings made on site and then wiped.

Some occasional time-shifting in the 1970-71 period also took place. I really must have a longer look at these opt-outs.

Transmissions of 'Blue Peter' (to give a nearest example) was almost always recorded off-air. Sometimes occasionally on 16mm when the tape machines weren't available, which might account for some TOTP TRs.

By 1970, it was usually pre-recorded (mostly the day before). This info comes from the P as Bs at Caversham.

Something to do with the new colour broadcasts I'd imagine. Easier to check things were right before transmission than just throwing on a smeary show. Easier for retakes too.

I've always wondered myself how long / why any given edition of TOTP was kept at the time. Evidence suggests that they were at least kept for a time. I wonder if this was standard policy or whether a "holding order" was placed on them for forseen sale / re-use?

I know drama had around a 3 year holding order. LEshows, and TOTP in particular, probably had a far less chance of overseas broadcast so may have been a lot shorter before the tapes were reused.

For instance, would they all have been kept for up to at least a year? Surely so as no one would be able to see forward in time to that years' Xmas show to know whether or not that particular artist would be available to perform the song again (and therefore whether or not a clip of the song needed to be retained just in case). Some Xmas shows do include repeats of past clips sometimes, which seems to back this idea up.

It's a real mystery. Caversham might have the paperwork for some wiping dates buried somewhere in the files, which might give a good indication of when things went. Probably located in some disparate file like "Tea Bag expenses" or something.

Also, even with "non-number 1 material", missing TOTP clips turned up on Beat Club many months after original transmission (e.g. Bobbie Gentry "Raindrop Keep Falling On My Head", which comes from a Feb 1970 TOTP only makes a German appearance in early '71 - almost a year later, so the master must have still been around to access). This suggests all material was retained for a year or so (maybe not much longer though as the "Ten Years Of TOTP" show in '73 has very little in the way of older material that doesn't still exist now).

They could also have "bought" the clip a year previously and had it sitting around all that time. Did 'Raindrops' take a year later to chart in Germany? Fancy that.

There's probably a decent article waiting to be written on all this....

[Laurence Piper]

Yes, i'd write it myself if there was an outlet these days (e.g. no Primetime, Timescreen etc).

Actually, with the "Raindrops" clip, "Disco" only began in '71 so it couldn't have bought the clip a year before. There were other instances of records charting in Germany a little later too, although not as drastically as in this instance. Other 1970 TOTP clips were also used later in '71 by "Disco" too, such as Shirley Bassey
"Something" (originally summer '70) plus Neil Diamond and The Kinks.

I have always wondered about those 1970 b/w t/rs (i.e. why they were made, along with that January 1973 edition). While talking with the late Richard Down at the 1999 Kaleidoscope convention, he mentioned to me that there was evidence to suggest that TOTP t/rs had been circulated as early as the '60s to the British armed forces overseas as a matter of course (amongst other shows, so they could see UK TV while away). No further delving into this fact was done but it seems like a worthy thing to look into; even if just a few of these prints were found to be still lying around with UK forces overseas or in ex-servicemen's attics, then that would be a real result! Anyone out there have the right connections?

[David Brunt]

Guest-Laurence said:

Yes, i'd write it myself if there was an outlet these days (e.g. no Primetime, Timescreen etc).

Probably a little bit outside the remit of Record Collector too.

I have always wondered about those 1970 b/w t/rs (i.e. why they were made, along with that January 1973 edition).

Blue Peter still have extant b/w TRs until late in 1979 (or thereabouts), it was the standard recording backup when tape wasn't available for some reason.

There were several techy strikes in early 1973 (not to mention the Miners!). There's a "Softly Softly" from that period only held in b/w too. Maybe those weeks were the VT bods turn...

While talking with the late Richard Down at the 1999 Kaleidoscope convention, he mentioned to me that there was evidence to suggest that TOTP t/rs had been circulated as early as the '60s to the British armed forces overseas as a matter of course (amongst other shows, so they could see UK TV while away).

That's a strong possibility. Whether they still survive though is another matter. I'd suspect they've been checked, but who can tell. <shrug>