Kenya?

[Richard Develyn]

I partly agree.

Hunting MEs has two parts: finding and getting them back. The more people who look, the more likely we are to find something, though I would suggest that the only hunters who are likely to succeed are either ones with a lot of time to spare or ones with personal connections to TV stations, collectors, etc.

Once found, however, as WoF 3 taught us, the path to getting them back to the BBC is fraught with danger. That's when I suggest quietly and discretely passing the information on to Paul V (I keep recommending him and hope he doesn't mind) or Richard B (ditto) and leaving it to the professionals.

Richard

[Richard Develyn]

There is another dimension to this.

Arguing that we should leave hunting to the professionals is okay as long as the professionals are actually doing something.

I remember (will never forget!) a conversation I had on rec.arts.dr-who 30 years ago (time flies!) against the professionals who were more or less saying it's not worth looking any more.

I suppose you could argue that if they're not doing anything now, they might start again in the future; however, IMO, if all professional hunting has stopped, then there's nothing to lose letting the amateurs loose.

I still think "professional episode hunting" is happening, BTW, but I don't know.

Richard

[garycritcher]

OK guys, ok. When I posted originally thought I would get some encouragement in this. But there has been so much negative reaction that the next time I think I'll post on here, I just won't. And if I DO get in touch with KBC, whatever the results, I certainly won't be posting it on here.
Oh, and I object to being given called a 'tourist'.

[Ronnie McDevitt]

Sept 30, 2024 16:09:36 GMT garycritcher said:

OK guys, ok. When I posted originally thought I would get some encouragement in this. But there has been so much negative reaction that the next time I think I'll post on here, I just won't. And if I DO get in touch with KBC, whatever the results, I certainly won't be posting it on here.
Oh, and I object to being given called a 'tourist'.

Gary you are coming accross as a bit over sensitive to be honest.
Where did I call you a tourist? You clearly state in your opening post you are resident in Kenya so there would be no reason to refer to you as such.
Indeed in neither of my posts have I addressed you or your intentions directly.
They are in response to another poster who seems to be encouraging people to carry out there own investigations.
My `tourists' reference was intended in general terms (hence the plural) as we all know there are no shortage of anoraks amongst Dr Who fans who will jump at the chance of becoming a hero.
People will do what they want - whether or not it is the right course is another matter.
Oh...... and that wasn't aimed at you either Gary!

[RWels]

Professionals don't have different DNA or something, they're simply people who know their stuff. Gary C is qualified. Suppose he strikes up a conversation with an archivist there, I'm all in favour.

Sept 30, 2024 16:09:36 GMT garycritcher said:

OK guys, ok. When I posted originally thought I would get some encouragement in this. But there has been so much negative reaction that the next time I think I'll post on here, I just won't. And if I DO get in touch with KBC, whatever the results, I certainly won't be posting it on here.
Oh, and I object to being given called a 'tourist'.

Well you have to understand, there are - everywhere - always posts that go more or less like this: "Archaeologists find Richard III" -> reply: "Was there any Dr Who?".

For all we know, you're a 16 year old with more enthusiasm than insight. (Well, I know you're not.)


Actually, I think what Richard D. means is simply: Suppose you DO find something and it IS DW, well THEN you have to be careful who you tell.
Luckily there are also lots of other programs that deserve to be found, that don't have all the "fan problems" of DW.

[anthonybartley]

The one thing I also don't get is precisely that 'tourist' reference.

You seem to imply that if we don't play it cool and leave it to the pros, then there is a veritable army of amateur sleuths waiting in the wings who are just itching to bombard remote African TV stations with requests for old reels of Dr. Who?

I suspect there are not.

In fact, right now, I lean towards the only person in Kenya (if they truly are who they say they are) currently alive on this planet and in a position to investigate is Gary.

The fact that he has connections and also knows his craft should be considered a very welcome bonus.

[sonnybh]

Sept 30, 2024 14:34:23 GMT Richard Develyn said:

There is another dimension to this.

Arguing that we should leave hunting to the professionals is okay as long as the professionals are actually doing something.

I remember (will never forget!) a conversation I had on rec.arts.dr-who 30 years ago (time flies!) against the professionals who were more or less saying it's not worth looking any more.

I suppose you could argue that if they're not doing anything now, they might start again in the future; however, IMO, if all professional hunting has stopped, then there's nothing to lose letting the amateurs loose.

I still think "professional episode hunting" is happening, BTW, but I don't know.

Richard

I remember having the same thoughts in 1999 only weeks before news of The Lion being found broke, the first major find for a few years.

[dennywilson]

Sept 30, 2024 11:16:12 GMT Richard Develyn said:

My only advice is please learn from the WoF 3 experience. Good luck!

Richard

Phil Morris is hardly an "amature".

There was a leak, but I doubt it was from Phil.

Again, the one key episode in bunch goes walkies before it ends up at the BBC - the first appearance of Nick Courtney as lethbridge Steward ment someone knew which episode to nick...

[anthonybartley]

Wof 3 is a good example of what not to do, surely?

Remote TV station in Africa, nobody within 5000 miles of the location has probably ever even heard of Dr. Who. Yet, somehow, some mysterious figure not only manages to infiltrate this 'deal' before it's even been announced to the world, but also swipes one of the cans to presumably keep it to sell to the highest bidder? If this spy was aware of the value, why did they only take 'one' episode when they could logically have taken all of them? But more importantly, how did they even get wind of the find in the first place? Answers on a postcard to...

If you buy that story, I have a bridge with your name on it for sale.

What I suspect happened is either (a) the can exists, but it was empty or (b) Phil kept the episode to trade (or extract) another missing episode from any hoarding collector he might meet in the future. And so far, he hasn't found anyone.

I lean towards the latter, which also affords us some degree of optimism - but I certainly wouldn't rule out the former completely.

[John Wall]

WoF3 has been “missing” for the best part of a decade now.

[John Green]

Oct 5, 2024 15:32:23 GMT John Wall said:

WoF3 has been “missing” for the best part of a decade now.

Missing presumed swiped.

[johngrundy]

Sept 30, 2024 16:09:36 GMT garycritcher said:

OK guys, ok. When I posted originally thought I would get some encouragement in this. But there has been so much negative reaction that the next time I think I'll post on here, I just won't. And if I DO get in touch with KBC, whatever the results, I certainly won't be posting it on here.
Oh, and I object to being given called a 'tourist'.

If you'd care to refer to the first page, you'll see some of us were indeed encouraging and positive.

Posting your news of a find would not indeed be the correct proceedure. Preferably contact the BBC, BFI, Kalediscope or individuals such as Paul V, Phil Morris, Ian Levine etc. They will ensure the films are shipped safely overseas.

I wish you all the best with your enquiries!

[Richard Develyn]

Just on the WoF 3 thing.

Paul V (I'm pretty sure) made what I thought was a pretty important observation a while ago along the lines of: If the film cans have been sitting there for 40 years, then they're not going anywhere soon.

Unless, of course, something changes.

What changed was their discovery and the news of that discovery.

Thus, it was as a direct result of Phil's actions that WoF 3 was lost.

Now, I'm not blaming him for this, I expect he got excited and told someone who told someone who told someone and so on. However, I would hate to see that mistake repeated.

As for what actually happened, I have two theories.

1) Someone phoned up the manager in charge of the archive and put it in his head that these things were valuable. The manager then went and swiped a random film can and hid it, with the thought that he might try to make money from it in the future. Taking just the one has the hallmarks of thinking that you might get away with it. If so, I don't believe he would have taken it home, because that would be stealing, so why take the risk. Equally, I don't think he would have destroyed it. Someone might see that and he would have broken the law for no benefit to himself. So I expect he just let it drop behind a filing cabinet (accidentally got lost) then found it again put it back in the cupboard where all the others are, but somewhere a little more obscure (so he can retrieve it when/if he wants to). If this is the case, then it's probably still there.

2) Someone phoned up the manager and offered him cash for WoF 3 because of the significance of the episode. This is much riskier, because the manager would have to have stolen it and posted it, which is probably traceable, and he might have been seen, and so on. Perhaps if he was offered enough he might have risked breaking the law and potentially losing his job. If that's the case, then someone in the UK probably has it.

I think (1) is much more likely than (2), but, anyway, just IMVHO.

Richard

[johngrundy]

Oct 6, 2024 11:15:44 GMT Richard Develyn said:

Just on the WoF 3 thing.

Paul V (I'm pretty sure) made what I thought was a pretty important observation a while ago along the lines of: If the film cans have been sitting there for 40 years, then they're not going anywhere soon.

Unless, of course, something changes.

What changed was their discovery and the news of that discovery.

Thus, it was as a direct result of Phil's actions that WoF 3 was lost.

Now, I'm not blaming him for this, I expect he got excited and told someone who told someone who told someone and so on. However, I would hate to see that mistake repeated.

As for what actually happened, I have two theories.

1) Someone phoned up the manager in charge of the archive and put it in his head that these things were valuable. The manager then went and swiped a random film can and hid it, with the thought that he might try to make money from it in the future. Taking just the one has the hallmarks of thinking that you might get away with it. If so, I don't believe he would have taken it home, because that would be stealing, so why take the risk. Equally, I don't think he would have destroyed it. Someone might see that and he would have broken the law for no benefit to himself. So I expect he just let it drop behind a filing cabinet (accidentally got lost) then found it again put it back in the cupboard where all the others are, but somewhere a little more obscure (so he can retrieve it when/if he wants to). If this is the case, then it's probably still there.

2) Someone phoned up the manager and offered him cash for WoF 3 because of the significance of the episode. This is much riskier, because the manager would have to have stolen it and posted it, which is probably traceable, and he might have been seen, and so on. Perhaps if he was offered enough he might have risked breaking the law and potentially losing his job. If that's the case, then someone in the UK probably has it.

I think (1) is much more likely than (2), but, anyway, just IMVHO.

Richard

Richard, I'm a simple sort of chap, could you please explain what the reasons would have been for a station manager destroying the film can and contents?

[Richard Develyn]

It was suggested in some discussions that took place a while ago, perhaps to cover up the fact that he had put WoF 3 "to one side" in the first place.

I don't see any sense in it either, so I doubt he did it.

Richard