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Post by johngrundy on Jun 18, 2024 8:35:32 GMT
Could anybody on here please let me know what original material was used for the restoration work on Doctor Who: The Daleks in Colour? The picture quality on Blu-ray is amazing, as good as the Star Trek the Original Series Blu-ray.
Were any original camera negatives used for this restoration?
The colour work was amazing too, the colour palette and sounds used brought to mind the Peter Cushing Dalek movies. Looking forward to a colourised version of The Dalek Invasion of Earth and (recoveries allowing), edited-down versions of The Dalek's Master Plan, Power and Evil.
Please let me know...
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Post by John Wall on Jun 18, 2024 9:43:19 GMT
It was probably the telerecording negatives.
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Post by johngrundy on Jun 18, 2024 10:33:26 GMT
It was probably the telerecording negatives. Okay, thanks, I guess these were the ones Ian Levine rescued? Wasn't there a case of one episode being found at the BFI recently, in a mislabelled film can? |
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Post by John Wall on Jun 18, 2024 11:17:54 GMT
It was probably the telerecording negatives. Okay, thanks, I guess these were the ones Ian Levine rescued? Wasn't there a case of one episode being found at the BFI recently, in a mislabelled film can? There have been a number of recoveries, someone can probably advise which are stored and which are suppressed field. |
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Post by Robbie Moubert on Jun 18, 2024 13:57:01 GMT
There have been a number of recoveries, someone can probably advise which are stored and which are suppressed field. Paul Vanezis talked about this a few years ago... Hi all, Back in the early 2000's, the negatives held at the BBC of the first three Doctor Who serials were transferred for The Beginning boxset. During the various transfer sessions, the can containing the negative for episode 7 of 'The Daleks', the episode entitled 'The Rescue' turned out to contain not a picture negative, but just a sound negative. Because the picture negative was missing, we had to use the one surviving print, which turned out to be scratched combined with a one-inch transfer of the same print which was made prior to it being damaged. Consequently, that episode is not the best it could be. Fast forward to 2021 and Richard Bignell contacted me to ask if the negatives of the early William Hartnell episodes held at the BFI might prove to be useful in a future restoration. This material was mostly donated to the BFI in 1986 by the BBC archive. The first episode I checked was episode 7 of The Daleks for which we only had a sound neg. When I checked the BFI's online catalogue, it turned out that they only had a sound neg as well. Except that we thought we had a picture neg 20 years ago, but it was a sound neg in the wrong can. Could the BFI sound neg actually be the picture neg and has never been checked? So I asked them to check it. And yes, what they thought was a sound negative turned out to be the missing picture negative. I suspect that the two negatives were put back in the wrong cans the last time the two cans were at a laboratory to have a print made and that must have been some time before 1986. In fact, it may have occurred in the 1970's. Now I know what you're thinking. Could a missing episode be hidden in plain sight at the BFI? Not Doctor Who, no. However, the other negatives do look as if they may assist us. Most appear to be the original FR negs made on first transmission and subsequently superceded by the new stored field recordings made in 1967. The irony here is that with 'The Daleks', episodes 5 & 7 are suppressed field recordings. There are no stored field recordings that we know of and we think this is due to the original tapes either being wiped or damaged by 1967. The other five episodes had two negatives, the original but poorer quality suppressed field recordings, plus the 1967 stored field recordings. The BBC donated the poorer quality suppressed field recordings to the BFI plus the spare sound negatives. All the BBC's original film recording negatives also have an optical soundtrack. Some episodes were found to be damaged when they were film recorded in 1967. The BBC then made Frankenstein versions of the damaged episodes, duping sections of the surviving suppressed field film recordings and editing those into the higher quality, but incomplete stored field recordings. Fortunately, the negatives for the two episodes affected by this editing are at the BFI, The Aztecs episode 1 and The Edge of Destruction episode 2. We should be able to make some improvements to all of these episodes in a future restoration. Regards, Paul |
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Post by johngrundy on Jun 18, 2024 18:37:28 GMT
Thank you for this.
So eps 5 & 7 are of a lesser picture quality. To be honest I didn't notice; looked consistently sharp throughout.
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Post by markperry on Jun 18, 2024 23:58:18 GMT
Well at least ep 5, we don't know what the misfiled now located ep 7 will look like here's hoping its a bit better than the old 1" backup copy of it which was all we had when the film was misfiled.
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Post by timothyk on Jun 19, 2024 5:30:48 GMT
Episodes 1-6 are the SD scans & restorations done for the DVD in 2005, upscaled to HD with some extra noise reduction
Episode 7 was a new HD scan from the BFI suppressed field negative
I did come up with a method to reduce the jagged edges on the suppressed field episodes 5 & 7, though it wasn't used on all the material from those episodes due to new VFX already being added to some shots. I don't know how those episodes will be tackled for the eventual Season 1 Collection set
And while it's nice to know people think it looks good, it's not really on par with original Star Trek picture quality - they had 35mm film, Doctor Who was fuzzy 405-line video!
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Post by richardwoods on Jun 19, 2024 12:37:08 GMT
Episodes 1-6 are the SD scans & restorations done for the DVD in 2005, upscaled to HD with some extra noise reduction Episode 7 was a new HD scan from the BFI suppressed field negative I did come up with a method to reduce the jagged edges on the suppressed field episodes 5 & 7, though it wasn't used on all the material from those episodes due to new VFX already being added to some shots. I don't know how those episodes will be tackled for the eventual Season 1 Collection set And while it's nice to know people think it looks good, it's not really on par with original Star Trek picture quality - they had 35mm film, Doctor Who was fuzzy 405-line video! Sorry to be a pedant but it’s easy to look at historic tele recordings and assume that 405 line video recordings were poor quality and fuzzy. They really weren’t. Bearing in mind that the system was largely designed in the 1930’s and for smaller screens than today, the quality was excellent and when broadcast as a genuine 405 signal rather than a converted 625 line signal with the contrast reduced to accommodate colour, gave genuinely excellent results with much darker black and better definition of grey scale than was ever experienced on 625 line broadcasts after the advent of colour. |
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Post by timothyk on Jun 19, 2024 13:59:59 GMT
They're a bit fuzzy when compared to 35mm film! (original Star Trek) And 'The Daleks' pictures are rather softer than most of the 405 line stuff I've seen or worked on, mainly due to the studio cameras in Lime Grove D at the time - CPS Emitron cameras from the mid 50s (nice greyscale on faces, but rather laggy & not as crisp as the Image Orthicon cameras used in most other studios in the 60s)
And of course suppressed field recordings are particularly lacking in detail with a maximum vertical resolution of 188.5 lines!
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Post by richardwoods on Jun 19, 2024 15:47:43 GMT
They're a bit fuzzy when compared to 35mm film! (original Star Trek) And 'The Daleks' pictures are rather softer than most of the 405 line stuff I've seen or worked on, mainly due to the studio cameras in Lime Grove D at the time - CPS Emitron cameras from the mid 50s (nice greyscale on faces, but rather laggy & not as crisp as the Image Orthicon cameras used in most other studios in the 60s) And of course suppressed field recordings are particularly lacking in detail with a maximum vertical resolution of 188.5 lines! All completely true of course, being a vintage TV restorer since the early 1970’s, (when I get the chance which is nothing like as often as I would like), and an avid viewer before that, I’m just keen to highlight that 405 line broadcast quality isn’t reflected by the archive quality of the surviving programmes these days and it’s important that folks who were not around at the time are made aware of how good the broadcast quality was on the system, particularly in the late 60’s. |
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Post by johngrundy on Jun 19, 2024 17:39:04 GMT
Episodes 1-6 are the SD scans & restorations done for the DVD in 2005, upscaled to HD with some extra noise reduction Episode 7 was a new HD scan from the BFI suppressed field negative I did come up with a method to reduce the jagged edges on the suppressed field episodes 5 & 7, though it wasn't used on all the material from those episodes due to new VFX already being added to some shots. I don't know how those episodes will be tackled for the eventual Season 1 Collection set And while it's nice to know people think it looks good, it's not really on par with original Star Trek picture quality - they had 35mm film, Doctor Who was fuzzy 405-line video! I beg to differ - with all due respect - the quality exceeded all expectations for me. Perhaps it's because i watch my Blu-rays upscaled on a 4K player? But even so... the Doctor Who restoration jobs seem to improve with each passing year. |
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Post by johngrundy on Jun 19, 2024 17:41:51 GMT
They're a bit fuzzy when compared to 35mm film! (original Star Trek) And 'The Daleks' pictures are rather softer than most of the 405 line stuff I've seen or worked on, mainly due to the studio cameras in Lime Grove D at the time - CPS Emitron cameras from the mid 50s (nice greyscale on faces, but rather laggy & not as crisp as the Image Orthicon cameras used in most other studios in the 60s) And of course suppressed field recordings are particularly lacking in detail with a maximum vertical resolution of 188.5 lines! All completely true of course, being a vintage TV restorer since the early 1970’s, (when I get the chance which is nothing like as often as I would like), and an avid viewer before that, I’m just keen to highlight that 405 line broadcast quality isn’t reflected by the archive quality of the surviving programmes these days and it’s important that folks who were not around at the time are made aware of how good the broadcast quality was on the system, particularly in the late 60’s. You must have had your work cut out as a TV restorer in 1985, Richard, with all the sets smashed in public protest over news of the series hiatus? |
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Post by richardwoods on Jun 19, 2024 18:09:47 GMT
All completely true of course, being a vintage TV restorer since the early 1970’s, (when I get the chance which is nothing like as often as I would like), and an avid viewer before that, I’m just keen to highlight that 405 line broadcast quality isn’t reflected by the archive quality of the surviving programmes these days and it’s important that folks who were not around at the time are made aware of how good the broadcast quality was on the system, particularly in the late 60’s. You must have had your work cut out as a TV restorer in 1985, Richard, with all the sets smashed in public protest over news of the series hiatus? Like it, 🤣🤣. And of course the slight problem that all 405 line broadcasts ceasing in early 1985 in the UK caused me, with no viable or affordable standards converter available at the time!! Oh for a cheap and affordable converter like the Aurora being available back then! |
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