Kaleidoscope Database

[Richard Moore]

Hi Guys,

Whilst it is great that ITV are now in on the act looking for lost shows i should perhaps warn you that the accuracy of the Kaleidoscope database worries me.

I had one quick serach (under my consant search for surviving Matt Monro footage for the estate) nd found listed one episode of "Set Em Up Joe" that he appeared in that is listed as missing - but is listed as complete on VT on the ITN Archive site!!! - what is worse is that they give no direct contact details to let them know of this error. (That I could find anyway!)

If this is what happens with just one small search how many errors are there?

This could be on both sides of the fence of course too saying that something exists when it does not and therefore someone who has the programme does not bother to return it - which is the most frightening aspect of it all.

Richard

[C Perry]

Hi Richard

There is a long thread about this further down this page which might help you.

Any errors we find we correct with 1-2 days.

However, be aware that just because its on the ITN Archive db does not mean it survives.

If you have actually seen the show and its the same one then post back to the board saying what tx date it is and what format its on and we'll correct it straight away.

Our records come from the companies themselves and sometimes things change over time, things are found or lost and we are not always notified of those changes, which is why we're glad that people like you do tell us.

Chris

[hartley967]

Hi Richard.

AFAIK Kaleidoscope is a voluntary organisation run by enthusiasts . They do not have automatic access to archive material or its records. Something like 7000 hours of TV is unaccounted for, presumed junked.

What has been achieved on the Kaleidoscope database is through years of patience , research and the TV companies' trust of people like Chris Perry .
I dont know him but when he comes here, he is very modest about what so far has been achieved, but never makes claims the DB is 100% accurate.

I maybe wrong but there is one surviving 'set em up joe' and Matt is not in that one.

[V B John]

richardm said:

Hi Guys,

Whilst it is great that ITV are now in on the act looking for lost shows i should perhaps warn you that the accuracy of the Kaleidoscope database worries me.

I had one quick serach (under my consant search for surviving Matt Monro footage for the estate) nd found listed one episode of "Set Em Up Joe" that he appeared in that is listed as missing - but is listed as complete on VT on the ITN Archive site!!! - what is worse is that they give no direct contact details to let them know of this error. (That I could find anyway!)

If this is what happens with just one small search how many errors are there?

This could be on both sides of the fence of course too saying that something exists when it does not and therefore someone who has the programme does not bother to return it - which is the most frightening aspect of it all.

Richard

Who knows how many errors there are ? It does not mean Kaleidoscope are wrong. They are only as good as the info they get. Be grateful there are people who devote their time, unpaid, to doing this.

[Richard Moore]

I'm not critisiing anyone. I'm grateful for anyone doing this -

I have spoken to ITN Archive (or ITN source as they are now known) and what's listed on their site is what is in their archives - The reason the site is there is for people to research easily for footage for use in TV Shows and they do not list anything that does not exist - how can they sell footage that does not exist!

The show is listed (along with 8 other editions) all dated.

Apologies for any offence caused especailly as it's a voluntary organisation - the ITV site makes it sound like it's a commercial company who they are working with! so much kudos to the volunteers doing the work!

Richard

[Richard Moore]

Mind you ITV don't help - Their press release says (and it must do as this has beeen reprinted in several places including the Radio Times) that all editions of "Blackpool Night Out" are missing particularly one starring the Beatles - which is odd considering much of it's been available (from a good VT source) on the Beatle Anthology since the 90's!

Also

Whilst speaking to the man from ITN he told me that the ITC/ATV archives are in a mess - "Shoved in a cupboard somewhere". You'd think if they were looking for lost TV shows, that ITV would at least get it's own archives in order first!

Richard

[Simon Coward]

richardm said:

I'm not critisiing anyone. I'm grateful for anyone doing this -

I have spoken to ITN Archive (or ITN source as they are now known) and what's listed on their site is what is in their archives - The reason the site is there is for people to research easily for footage for use in TV Shows and they do not list anything that does not exist - how can they sell footage that does not exist!

The problem, of course, is that ITN Archive/ITN Source didn't input this data themselves based on the material they've acquired for sale, instead it has come from a number of different databases of varying formats and, it must be said, with varying degrees of accuracy. If you're dealing with a libarary of several hundred thousand tapes would you have the time to check them individually? Of course you wouldn't, especially when a lot of the material has negligible sales potential. What you would do is wait until someone comes along and makes a serious enquiry - i.e. is prepared to hand over money to buy material - and then try to find the tapes or films.

For example: ITN source still lists five episodes of The Adventures Of Don Quick - four of which are supposed to be missing. Hooray!! Ah, but we've already asked about these and it turns out they don't have them after all. So unless these have turned up since we asked - say in the last twelve months - the ITN entry is wrong. Of course perhaps they have turned up and no-one's told us. But I would be amazed. Not to mention delighted!

Like any database, theirs isn't perfect either - but it might have been nice if you'd taken the view that either of us might be wrong, rather than just assuming we were. However, if and when you can lay your hands on a copy (or even see some other first-hand evidence) of the particular episode of Set Em Up Joe, please do post here and we will update our information accordingly. In the meantime, we'd rather treat them as missing and hope someone can return them. After all, in a hunt for missing material, it's better to say something's missing and be wrong than say it's not missing and be wrong. Eh?

[Paul Reid]

richardm said:

I have spoken to ITN Archive (or ITN source as they are now known) and what's listed on their site is what is in their archives - The reason the site is there is for people to research easily for footage for use in TV Shows and they do not list anything that does not exist - how can they sell footage that does not exist!

The ITN database is actually based on the fact that the PAPERWORK says whether a programme exists or not .. and not whether the tapes have been confirmed to be existance.

I know this concretely due to a request for certain episodes of the HTV serial "The Georgian House" which are listed on ITN. They even went as far as to bill me for VHS copies of said episodes ... only to contact me later and say the "tapes could not be found" and refund the money.

So they list what the documentation says ... and try and find the tapes when a customer requests the footage ... and in the majority of programmes with little sale potential this could be years ... or never ... and in the meantime the listing is actually "wrong".

A final point is that ITN currently do not market the ex-Carlton archive .. this is with Granada International (formely Carlton Int) .. so they don't list e.g. ATV programmes anyway .. only the ex Granada owned material like YTV and LWT etc.

[C Perry]

Hello Richard

Is this the show you mean off the ITN db. It matches the tx date for the Matt Monro appearance?

Series title
SET 'EM UP JOE

Programme title
SET 'EM UP JOE

Production title
SET 'EM UP JOE

Credits


Production companies
LONDON WEEKEND TELEVISION

Production area
DELETED EN

Gm library type
LWT Production

Paris company
LONDON WEEKEND TELEVISION

Genre
ENT

Production type
PROGRAMME

Version type
UK VERSION

Picture style
Colour

Sound style
Mono

Slot time
45

Commissioner
THE ITV NETWORK

Production ID
DL/00262

Programme ID
L0929

I think the clue to it not being in existence are the words DELETED EN. There is also no info in the RIGHTS box another clue it can't be used.

I have checked with ITV and it is indeed deleted.

The ITN database is based on the rights management database of ITV and contains details of all shows missing or not. Sadly, this causes us all great problems when we think it exists, and then it does not.

As for The Beatles footage, we have enquired from Canal Plus and as far as they are aware the Beatles footage in the anthology is licensed from the surviving shows of BIG NIGHT OUT, they do not hold any footage from the Beatles on BLACKPOOL BIG NIGHT OUT. Now perhaps this footage came from the NFTVA or a private collection, but I think its more likely the footage has been attributed to the wrong BIG NIGHT OUT show or perhaps Canal Plus have it all the time, but are just going mad.

Chris :-)

[C Perry]

ps "The man from ITN who said ATVs archive is shoved in a cupboard" is ill-informed and talking rubbish.

a) ITN is a separate company and they have NO RECORDS of any material held by ATV/ITC to make that value judgement.

b) the archive in Perivale has never been better organised than in the last five years. Michelle Gates, before she left, sorted out the library magnificently, finding numerous extras plays and shows including complete sets of many sitcoms and VT tapes thought only to exist as telerecordings. She found 50 extra Crossroads amongst other things.

The archive is stored in one building and fully catalogued. But ITN would not know either way because they are based at the South Bank and Granada Leeds, nowhere near Perivale.

c

[Richard Moore]

Look I have no reason to argue with anyone and have to say I do not like being called a fool!

(Although this word has not been used it has very much been implied!)

I have simply trusted a professional source - if i am wrong, fair enough there is no reason to shout me down!!!!!

We all have the same aim and there is no reason to be rude!

I can only work with what i'm being told!

The Beatles Performance on the Anthology DVD's is this:

ABC Theatre Blackpool

Blackpool Night Out

1st August 1965

It is not from Big Night Out (although I think a clip is of them one of these is used elsewhere in the series)

They appeared on Big Night Out on :

1st September 63 (recording date TX 7th Sept )
23rd February 64 (recording date - TX 29th Feb)

(both of which I believe exist - even if the quality is not brilliant but i have not yet seen them myself!)

Blackpool Night Out
19th July 64 (Live) - Which I think IS missing - But audio survives - Which I have a copy of.

1st August 65 (Live) - Which is most defintely not missing ! (See Beatles Anthology DVD episode 5 from 43 minutes onwards- Credits don't help because who owns footage seems to change every morning (And much of the footage research was done for an aborted anthology in the 70's)!

I have not checked any official database for this info just reference books and my own collection as obviously no one can now be trusted! I am not including un-official sources either as they can only work with info received and I will only get shouted at again!!!!

The man at ITN Source who someone has just shot down in flames (I thought we were supposed to be a nice lot here) was talking from personal experience - he has researched material himself! - and is not the first person - Including another film researcher to have said that the ITC archive is in a mess. I'm not saying it was in a bad way 5 years ago - but since bought by Granada Ventures it is apparently in a mess now (as it was likely not to have been fully catalogued prior to sale - it was more than 30 years of material after all) I would never wish to put down any research by anyone - which is in the end all i'm trying to do!

Basically ITN Source deal with Granada (and many other companies) footage so they do have links with the company - and It's likely that the library ITC archive has been moved since the sale

Network DVD who are dealing with DVD rights are the only people working properly on the archive at the moment (as far as i have been able to work out anyway) and are only looking certain items NOT everything (and i've heard comment from them somewhere about the state of the archive too making that a hard task!). So who do I believe several professionals who work in the business who I have spoken to personally OR people who shoot me down in flames!

Put it this way if it is well organised why is it so hard to get information from them!

The truth probably falls somewhere between each camp!

In the end it just goes to show that for some odd reason there is an awful lot of information out there that is at odds with it'self and none of us no who to believe

The main point of this exercise of finding material should surely first for ALL ITV companies past and present to search their archives and catalogue them properly. If ITN Source (who are in the end just a footage sales company) do NOT have accurate information when they are trying to sell this stuff, sooner or later some BIG production companies are going to get really annoyed if alot of material they request DOESN'T exist.

The amounts that many of these companies make in archive sales must surely leave room for a researchers salary (I'm sure some of us would do it for free in our spare time given the chance)

Once again Kaleidoscope - keep up the good work (i'll say it again- ITV Don't make it clear you are a voluntary organisation)

Let's be nice please

Richard

[C Perry]

Hi Richard

I apologise if I appear rude, I am not trying to be rude in any way.

I reiterate again, the man from ITN Source is ill informed. I don't care what other researchers claim, I know the Perivale archive initmately. Simon and I spent three years going up and down to the building and trust me when I say from personal experience that it is very well catalogued, and looked after by trusted people.

By the way, I know most of the researchers for ITN Source as well, and all the ones I know have no dealings with Perivale and would not be able to comment with any accuracy.

As for the Beatles footage, it is excellent news if this footage is indeed from a missing show, but I have no idea where it came from. However, I trust your word implicitly and I will make enquiries, because this does happen from time to time that footage surfaces privately and TV companies are unaware where it is stored.

Many, many thanks for your help in this matter.

Chris

[Richard Moore]

I am glad that ITC is in good order from someone who kows first hand - I just wish I could get some answers from them (or indeed find the best person to contact)

Blackpool Night Out. Here is a possible senario. Apple have the only copy! Which they will probably have horded since the seventies when the project was first researched in the 1970's.

However one piece of further info here. They issued Audio versions of 4 of the songs from thet show on CD (Anthology 2) and the credit is "Lumiere" Did they own the ABC archive in 1996?

As for "set em up Joe" I will contact ITN again and see if someone will check to see if the show really does exist!!

Thanks

Richard

[Deleted]

C said:

Hi Richard
As for the Beatles footage, it is excellent news if this footage is indeed from a missing show, but I have no idea where it came from. However, I trust your word implicitly and I will make enquiries, because this does happen from time to time that footage surfaces privately and TV companies are unaware where it is stored.
Chris

Hi Chris,
Just to reiterate what Richard has been saying, The Beatles' 1/8/65 "Blackpool Night Out" appearance is used heavily in the "Beatles Anthology" series / video release. I also have footage of the whole six song set featured (Help / I'm Down / Act Naturally / Ticket To Ride / Yesterday / I Feel Fine) with Bernie Winters' intro to the group and the "Blackpool Night Out" end credits / ABC logo intact. My guess is that Apple have their own copy (at least of The Beatles contribution) and no print resides with Lumiere. Have you tried contacting Apple, by the way? The Anthology series definitely seemed to regularly use footage that is "supposed" to be missing
(e.g. some "Thank Your Lucky Stars" material that isn't part of any of the officially existing handful of editions).

I also have footage from the 29/2/64 "Big Night Out", which has The Beatles performing five songs in front of a union jack set (Please Mr. Postman / Till There Was You / I Want To Hold Your Hand / All My Loving / I Want To Be Your Man) and participating in a few short sketches. The opening sketch with The Beatles and opening / closing titles are also present. The footage has a "Seven Arts" distribution logo (Australian TV?) on it and an "insert commercial break here" caption at various points between songs / sketches throughout, suggesting an overseas distribution copy of The Beatles footage (according to Mark Lewisohn's book, a sixth song - Money - was also in the show but removed for overseas sales). Something to look into, Chris?

[C Perry]

It seems likely that Apple may be the source, I am checking....

c