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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 12:53:19 GMT
In 1984, Episode 4 of the Celestial Toymaker was found by the ABC. Records showed that all 4 of Australia's prints of the Celestial Toymaker were junked in 1975, yet Episode 4 survived.
Some said that Episode 4 was from Singapore (which also aired the Celestial Toymaker) and that it somehow ended up at the ABC, possibly by mistake.
Others said that the Episode was indeed the original Australian print that was misplaced during the junking of the other episodes.
I want to put this issue to rest once and for all and solve its mystery: Was Ep. 4 of Celestial Toymaker the original Australian print or the Singapore print? In other words, Was the Episode from Australia or Singapore?.
Also, if it was from Singapore, could the other 3 episodes (and possibly other episodes sent to Singapore) still survive?
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Post by barneyhall on Jul 12, 2023 13:54:40 GMT
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Post by billardery on Jul 12, 2023 17:43:37 GMT
tl;dr:
According to the podcast, it can't be the New Zealand/Singapore print, because the NZ censors listed a cut in Toymaker 4 that was not present in the recovered print. Episode runtime records indicate that the cut was in fact made.
Proponents of the New Zealand/Singapore theory point to the fact that the "next episode" title was cut from the end of the episode, which fits with the fact that New Zealand didn't air The Gunfighters, but the Australian broadcasters also regularly cut out the next episode titles to avoid confusion on repeat out-of-order airings.
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Post by andyparting on Jul 12, 2023 18:42:57 GMT
There's something about the Singapore films being returned that so far draws a blank. Nothing confirmed. As of today, our hopes rest in the discovery of this cache somewhere 'out there'
Australian returns - confirmed 1975
New Zealand films - confirmed as buried 1974
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Post by Tim Burrows on Jul 12, 2023 19:35:19 GMT
There's something about the Singapore films being returned that so far draws a blank. Nothing confirmed. As of today, our hopes rest in the discovery of this cache somewhere 'out there' Australian returns - confirmed 1975 New Zealand films - confirmed as buried 1974 Singapore has been written to, checked and re-checked. So unless they miraculously survived elsewhere, they’re doomed. |
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Post by andyparting on Jul 12, 2023 19:43:45 GMT
There's something about the Singapore films being returned that so far draws a blank. Nothing confirmed. As of today, our hopes rest in the discovery of this cache somewhere 'out there' Australian returns - confirmed 1975 New Zealand films - confirmed as buried 1974 Singapore has been written to, checked and re-checked. So unless they miraculously survived elsewhere, they’re doomed. Yes - I hope Africa. Wasn't the War Machines sent on to Africa from Singapore? Tim, did you ascertain what the 3pm annoucement was in the end regarding a box set? The man at the bar next to me reckons it's (in his whiskey-fueled words) "a Patrick Charlton box schet." |
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Post by Tim Burrows on Jul 12, 2023 19:55:12 GMT
Singapore has been written to, checked and re-checked. So unless they miraculously survived elsewhere, they’re doomed. Yes - I hope Africa. Wasn't the War Machines sent on to Africa from Singapore? Tim, did you ascertain what the 3pm annoucement was in the end regarding a box set? The man at the bar next to me reckons it's (in his whiskey-fueled words) "a Patrick Charlton box schet." Well that was the rumour in 2013. But that’s not played out, other than Enemy and Web. Time to put that one to bed. The 3pm announcement was a hoax and frankly I’ve got no idea why certain people are getting all frothy about box set announcements. They’ll be here when they get here. But that’s off-topic. |
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jul 12, 2023 21:42:15 GMT
There were only two sets of prints struck for The Tenth Planet - one was sent to Australia, the other went to NZ then to Singapore.
Episodes 1,2,3 exist, as does a second print of ep 2. Where did these come from?
The NZ censors cut ep 4 - which doesn't exist - but the BBC had access to a print of it in 1973 to lift the regeneration for Blue Peter. This wasn't the Australian print as that didn't get returned until 1975.
I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that 1,2,3 and the now lost ep 4 is the NZ/Sing set (returned in 72/73), and the other ep 2 came from the 1975 Australian consignment.
Ergo, the ex-NZ/Sing films all likely ended up back at the BBC soon after broadcast in Singapore.
To answer the original question about Celestial Toymaker 4, that's definitely the Australian print.
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Post by Ralph Rose on Jul 12, 2023 22:19:10 GMT
To answer the original question about Celestial Toymaker 4, that's definitely the Australian print. And the edit of the "Next Episode" caption was repaired for the "Lost In Time" DVD Boxset. |
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Post by Tim Burrows on Jul 12, 2023 22:50:19 GMT
There were only two sets of prints struck for The Tenth Planet - one was sent to Australia, the other went to NZ then to Singapore. Episodes 1,2,3 exist, as does a second print of ep 2. Where did these come from? The NZ censors cut ep 4 - which doesn't exist - but the BBC had access to a print of it in 1973 to lift the regeneration for Blue Peter. This wasn't the Australian print as that didn't get returned until 1975. I think it's fairly reasonable to assume that 1,2,3 and the now lost ep 4 is the NZ/Sing set (returned in 72/73), and the other ep 2 came from the 1975 Australian consignment. Ergo, the ex-NZ/Sing films all likely ended up back at the BBC soon after broadcast in Singapore. To answer the original question about Celestial Toymaker 4, that's definitely the Australian print. So do 1, the first 2, and 3 have ad splices in them? |
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Post by Jon Preddle on Jul 13, 2023 2:52:32 GMT
So do 1, the first 2, and 3 have ad splices in them? I don't think so. But based on the published timeslots NZBC and RTS didn't show ads when DW was shown. |
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Post by andyparting on Jul 13, 2023 8:53:55 GMT
Yes - I hope Africa. Wasn't the War Machines sent on to Africa from Singapore? Tim, did you ascertain what the 3pm annoucement was in the end regarding a box set? The man at the bar next to me reckons it's (in his whiskey-fueled words) "a Patrick Charlton box schet." Well that was the rumour in 2013. But that’s not played out, other than Enemy and Web. Time to put that one to bed. The 3pm announcement was a hoax and frankly I’ve got no idea why certain people are getting all frothy about box set announcements. They’ll be here when they get here. But that’s off-topic. Tim, mate, there wasn't a rumour about the War Machines being sent on to Africa from Singapore back in 2013 - I just looked it up on BroaDWcast. It all payed out in back 1984: "All four episodes were later recovered from Nigeria in 1984, these being the ones that had originated in New Zealand, and sent to Singapore. Singapore or Nigeria had made further censor cuts or timing edits to some of the episodes. Episode two had parts of the cliffhanger ending removed, while the same footage was mostly missing from the recap in part three. Had those two episodes been edited and spliced together for broadcast in Nigeria?" |
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Post by billardery on Jul 13, 2023 13:22:32 GMT
Well that was the rumour in 2013. But that’s not played out, other than Enemy and Web. Time to put that one to bed. The 3pm announcement was a hoax and frankly I’ve got no idea why certain people are getting all frothy about box set announcements. They’ll be here when they get here. But that’s off-topic. Tim, mate, there wasn't a rumour about the War Machines being sent on to Africa from Singapore back in 2013 - I just looked it up on BroaDWcast. It all payed out in back 1984: "All four episodes were later recovered from Nigeria in 1984, these being the ones that had originated in New Zealand, and sent to Singapore. Singapore or Nigeria had made further censor cuts or timing edits to some of the episodes. Episode two had parts of the cliffhanger ending removed, while the same footage was mostly missing from the recap in part three. Had those two episodes been edited and spliced together for broadcast in Nigeria?"Those episodes of The War Machines were recovered from Nigeria in 1984/5, no one is disputing that. The 2013 rumor was brought up in response to the idea that there are more episodes in Africa waiting to be recovered. It's technically not *impossible* I suppose, but very unlikely considering that those African broadcasters have been combed through by the same process that returned the 9 episodes in Jos. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2023 13:42:15 GMT
Tim, mate, there wasn't a rumour about the War Machines being sent on to Africa from Singapore back in 2013 - I just looked it up on BroaDWcast. It all payed out in back 1984: "All four episodes were later recovered from Nigeria in 1984, these being the ones that had originated in New Zealand, and sent to Singapore. Singapore or Nigeria had made further censor cuts or timing edits to some of the episodes. Episode two had parts of the cliffhanger ending removed, while the same footage was mostly missing from the recap in part three. Had those two episodes been edited and spliced together for broadcast in Nigeria?"Those episodes of The War Machines were recovered from Nigeria in 1984/5, no one is disputing that. The 2013 rumor was brought up in response to the idea that there are more episodes in Africa waiting to be recovered. It's technically not *impossible* I suppose, but very unlikely considering that those African broadcasters have been combed through by the same process that returned the 9 episodes in Jos. Yeah, it's getting more difficult, if not impossible, to find any missing episodes in Africa. Sierra Leone returned their prints in 1974, Kenya and Zambia were confirmed in 2008 to no longer possess any BBC prints, leaving their fates unknown. It's possible that Nigeria and Ethiopia may still have prints, but we don't known for certain. |
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Post by Tim Burrows on Jul 13, 2023 15:21:32 GMT
Well that was the rumour in 2013. But that’s not played out, other than Enemy and Web. Time to put that one to bed. The 3pm announcement was a hoax and frankly I’ve got no idea why certain people are getting all frothy about box set announcements. They’ll be here when they get here. But that’s off-topic. Tim, mate, there wasn't a rumour about the War Machines being sent on to Africa from Singapore back in 2013 - I just looked it up on BroaDWcast. It all payed out in back 1984: "All four episodes were later recovered from Nigeria in 1984, these being the ones that had originated in New Zealand, and sent to Singapore. Singapore or Nigeria had made further censor cuts or timing edits to some of the episodes. Episode two had parts of the cliffhanger ending removed, while the same footage was mostly missing from the recap in part three. Had those two episodes been edited and spliced together for broadcast in Nigeria?"Bill is quite right. However, fans of the question "why did The War Machines end up in Africa?" will soon be in for a treat. I recently recorded an interview with Jon P about this very thing. If there isn't already a section in the Guinness book of records for talking at length about "why did The War Machines end up in Africa?", there soon should be! It's a fascinating conversation which will clarify in great detail how and why stories were sold to various locations (and as an added bonus it goes a long way to debunking the rumours of 2013.) |
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