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Post by Simon B Kelly on Jul 29, 2018 8:37:22 GMT
The Rose D'or awards, as they are now known, began in 1961. Originally held in Montreux, Switzerland, the festival moved to Lucerne, Switzerland in 2004, before switching to Berlin, Germany, where it has been since 2013.
Originally, there were just 3 awards: The Golden Rose, The Silver Rose and The Bronze Rose, but over the years extra awards were added and eventually different categories, each of which were entitled to a Golden Rose.
Current rules insist that the programmes submitted must be uploaded in HD "as originally broadcast" without timecode or DOGs, but, of course, back in the sixties and seventies film was the preferred method of sharing programmes around the world, as it eliminated the problems with different TV systems and video formats, so all entries were presumably submitted as a physical 16mm or 35mm film print.
We know that filming of the alternate version began immediately after the second series had wrapped, but why remake an episode that had already been filmed, when they could have simply submitted the original version? Was it so that the original studio VT scenes could be recorded direct to 16mm to improve picture quality and allow a new master to be created on film instead of videotape?
The BBC had been pretty successful at Rose D'or, winning the first ever Golden Rose awarded in 1961 for a show that they'd probably prefer to forget these days, "The Black and White Minstrel Show". They won again in 1967 for "Frost over England". In 1969 and 1971 they came second, winning a Silver Rose for "Marty" and "Monty Python's Flying Circus" respectively.
This brings us up to 1972, when, for the first time, ITV won the Golden Rose with "The Best of the Comedy Machine", a programme starring Marty Feldman (who had won silver for the BBC in 1969) and Spike Milligan. The BBC's entry of Kitten Kong, submitted as an example of their series, "The Goodies", came in second place, winning them their third Silver Rose.
Many Australians remember seeing the original version of Kitten Kong in black and white, which was later replaced with the Rose D'or colour version, so we know that a black and white telerecording was made of it, along with the rest of the second series, before the original video was wiped. It's just frustrating that a series that the BBC deemed important enough to submit to Rose D'or, wasn't properly archived in the first place...
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Post by Richard Marple on Jul 29, 2018 9:20:56 GMT
I heard that many of the ITV entries were specially made, but most of the BBC ones were normally standard programming.
Maybe the BBC decided to throw some extra money behind their entry but didn't want to risk a new script, so compromised by jazzing up an existing one.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Jul 29, 2018 11:57:44 GMT
There are several others from the 1960s that are a mix. Frost Report: Existing material but newly recorded (if you look carefully at the ubiquitous "Class sketch" you can see that there are two different versions). Monty Python: Some new linking, some remakes of sketches along with existing stuff. It's Marty: Mostly existing material but with some additional material.
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Post by darrenlee on Jul 29, 2018 14:04:13 GMT
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Post by Jon Preddle on Aug 1, 2018 19:47:01 GMT
We only ever got the re-edited version in New Zealand. It was submitted to the censors (on "VT colour") under the title "THE GOODIES MONTREUX ENTRY" [sic] in February 1974.
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Post by Simon B Kelly on Aug 4, 2018 18:32:49 GMT
Here in the UK, the original Kitten Kong aired on BBC 2 on the 12th November 1971. The alternate version was listed in the Radio Times as simply Montreux 72 when it was first broadcast on 9th April 1972. In 1975 the BBC once again entered an episode of The Goodies into Rose D'or. This time it was the first episode of Series 5, more commonly known as "The Movies". No special edit or remake was filmed this time. They even got all three of them to make a documentary on the festival, broadcast on the 10th May 1975, and billed in the Radio Times as The Golden Rose (I wonder if that still exists in the archive?) The winner of the Golden Rose that year was RAI of Italy, with their entry Fatti e Fattacci (which translates as Facts and Facts), a programme that RAI had filmed in colour especially for the festival, as colour TV didn't arrive in Italy until 1976! The Goodies at the Movies won the Silver Rose...
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Post by Martin Dunne on Aug 15, 2018 8:04:20 GMT
The thread on Kitten Kong at Goodies Rule -- OK? is getting good.
Do any other Australians have memories of the episode? Does any images from the original version survive?
One poster says he saw it in 1981, an earlier year seems more likely to me. Any thoughts?
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Post by Simon B Kelly on Aug 17, 2018 16:27:35 GMT
I'm optimistic that somewhere down under, in one or more territories, a 16mm telerecording of the original Kitten Kong still exists. Several networks broadcast The Goodies, in various timeslots, some using edited/censored prints, so although the BBC may only have sent them one black and white positive, it's likely copies were struck for the different territories.
I'm hoping that as archives are digitized and their databases appear online, that in time the original will resurface. Fingers crossed, we'll still be around to see it...
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Aug 17, 2018 19:44:19 GMT
I'm optimistic that somewhere down under, in one or more territories, a 16mm telerecording of the original Kitten Kong still exists. Several networks broadcast The Goodies, in various timeslots, some using edited/censored prints, so although the BBC may only have sent them one black and white positive, it's likely copies were struck for the different territories. I'm hoping that as archives are digitized and their databases appear online, that in time the original will resurface. Fingers crossed, we'll still be around ro see it... It just doesn't get the attention that Doctor Who gets. Otherwise the two b/w episodes would have long since been recolourised too.
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Post by Martin Dunne on Aug 18, 2018 14:12:33 GMT
As it happens ... this research has already turned up a domestic recording of the B&W Kitten Kong ... which had the colour Montreux '72 recorded over it. B&W Commonwealth Games and Come Dancing were repeated in 1980, possibly this run also included the original Kitten Kong. I have tapes that old, it makes other domestic recording quite possible.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Aug 18, 2018 20:16:15 GMT
As it happens ... this research has already turned up a domestic recording of the B&W Kitten Kong ... which had the colour Montreux '72 recorded over it. B&W Commonwealth Games and Come Dancing were repeated in 1980, possibly this run also included the original Kitten Kong. I have tapes that old, it makes other domestic recording quite possible. That must be one of the earliest systems then; was version 1 shown at all after 1972? It won a BAFTA; I wonder if it wasn't entered for any other competitions? One "Do not adjust your set" episode survives because it was an entry for a festival.
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Post by Martin Dunne on Aug 19, 2018 9:33:59 GMT
That must be one of the earliest systems then; was version 1 shown at all after 1972? This was in Sydney, on Betacord. The recordist believes it was in 1981, I am finding listings which place it in 1980 in a run which extended to 23 weeks in some regions. That's Monday to Thursday at 6 PM, Doctor Who at 6.30, six months of the year, suck it. According to the divine Matthew K Sharp, Channel Seven received all of ABC's Goodies material when they bought the rights to the show in 1986. This included B&W 16mm prints of The Greenies, Commonwealth Games and Come Dancing. They were considered untransmittable, but a Goodies fan at Seven had them transferred and returned to the BBC. The Greenies was superfluous, Commonwealth Games and Come Dancing were missing. Of the two, Commonwealth Games had three edits, which may have been recovered from the National Archives. On to Kitten Kong. I may have seen it in this 1980 run too, but can't remember. If I can verify this screening, that brings its existence up to 1980. The B&W Come Dancing (listed in guides) and Commonwealth Games (listed and I remember seeing it) were played in this run, there appears to be a listing for a B&W Way Outward Bound but I haven't verified it yet and is likely a misprint. The next event was a new contract and episodes in 1981, including the unscreened series Six, Seven and Eight. The runs in 1981 were much shorter and appear to comprise no B&W or pre-Five episodes. Channel Seven gets the contract for the ITV episodes in 1983 and screen them in a double act with the BBC Kenny Everett. ABC continues with BBC Goodies repeats until 1986, where as Matthew has it, they send Seven all their material. If Kitten Kong and the other B&Ws all survived to 1980, and the other three to 1986 and recovery, why not Kitten Kong? The final part of the recordist's claim is he was disappointed with this strange B&W take on Kitten Kong, so when he saw it listed again a few weeks later he recorded the colour version over it. He no longer has the tapes.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Aug 19, 2018 17:37:57 GMT
That must be one of the earliest systems then; was version 1 shown at all after 1972? This was in Sydney, on Betacord. The recordist believes it was in 1981, I am finding listings which place it in 1980 in a run which extended to 23 weeks in some regions. That's Monday to Thursday at 6 PM, Doctor Who at 6.30, six months of the year, suck it. According to the divine Matthew K Sharp, Channel Seven received all of ABC's Goodies material when they bought the rights to the show in 1986. This included B&W 16mm prints of The Greenies, Commonwealth Games and Come Dancing. They were considered untransmittable, but a Goodies fan at Seven had them transferred and returned to the BBC. The Greenies was superfluous, Commonwealth Games and Come Dancing were missing. Of the two, Commonwealth Games had three edits, which may have been recovered from the National Archives. On to Kitten Kong. I may have seen it in this 1980 run too, but can't remember. If I can verify this screening, that brings its existence up to 1980. The B&W Come Dancing (listed in guides) and Commonwealth Games (listed and I remember seeing it) were played in this run, there appears to be a listing for a B&W Way Outward Bound but I haven't verified it yet and is likely a misprint. The next event was a new contract and episodes in 1981, including the unscreened series Six, Seven and Eight. The runs in 1981 were much shorter and appear to comprise no B&W or pre-Five episodes. Channel Seven gets the contract for the ITV episodes in 1983 and screen them in a double act with the BBC Kenny Everett. ABC continues with BBC Goodies repeats until 1986, where as Matthew has it, they send Seven all their material. If Kitten Kong and the other B&Ws all survived to 1980, and the other three to 1986 and recovery, why not Kitten Kong? The final part of the recordist's claim is he was disappointed with this strange B&W take on Kitten Kong, so when he saw it listed again a few weeks later he recorded the colour version over it. He no longer has the tapes. Didn't two Hi-de-hi episodes survive (albeit abridged) in almost exactly the same way?
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Post by Kieran Seymour on Aug 19, 2018 18:04:20 GMT
Didn't two Hi-de-hi episodes survive (albeit abridged) in almost exactly the same way? I think that was It Ain't Half Hot Mum.
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RWels
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Post by RWels on Aug 19, 2018 21:00:06 GMT
Didn't two Hi-de-hi episodes survive (albeit abridged) in almost exactly the same way? I think that was It Ain't Half Hot Mum. That's probably the one. The problem was, by the time they were identified, all that was left was the off airs... The masters that they came from had been destroyed. Right? It must have been more or less by accident that it was shown as late as 1980 (assuming that the story is true).
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