“Uh, I don’t know the words to that one, man....”

[Tony Walshaw]

To return to the topic of 'what people did (or didn't) say', I think quotes have worked their way into the collective memory purely because they do survive.

One such is the newsreader who said "....and now the news, in English...." in the midst of an early Emperor Rosko show on Radio One.

If a recording of this did not survive, this anecdote would not be trotted out frequently at anniversaries etc.

[markdixon]

Here’s a few ideas relating to earlier posts.


Tony is right to point out that many members of ‘the older generation’ in the 1960s enjoyed (or at least tolerated) pop music. It’s maybe not surprising that the beat era (1963-1966) was the high point of pop on British peak time television. Beat music had something for all the family. Teenagers liked the raucous nature of the music and parents appreciated the melodies and the cheerfulness. However, a notable divide opened up in 1966 between the ‘hipper’ youth-orientated pop acts and the harmless, family-friendly performers. Pop shows such as “Ready Steady Go!” vanished and peak-time TV catered much more for the musical tastes of the parents.


By the late Sixties, “Top of the Pops” was the only survivor from the earlier era. Pop stars such as Cilla Black and Tom Jones had their own peak-time shows of course, but these were light-entertainment programmes. New pop shows such as “Discotheque” and “Lift Off” were aimed at children and were shown in the late afternoon.


Bubblegum music was mentioned a few posts back. A lot of bubblegum music was aimed at children, but it had some of the same family-friendly qualities as beat; it was melodic, upbeat and light-hearted. The Fortunes and the Tremeloes were two groups who made the transition from beat to bubblegum quite easily. Bubblegum bands such as White Plains and Pickettywitch would often appear on family shows such as “The Golden Shot” in the early Seventies.


I think the bubblegum era (1968-1972) is misunderstood, partly because so few of the TV performances have survived. There were a lot of folk-pop and psych-pop bands in the late Sixties who ended up in the ‘bubblegum’ category because they were too light and melodic to be classified as ‘rock’. I can’t say I’ve ever given much thought to Jimmy Young’s radio career, but I looked up some of the bands he had in session on his Radio 1 show during the late Sixties/early Seventies. Many of the names are familiar to me from psych-pop compilations such as the “Rubble” series. They include the Idle Race, the Californians, the Flying Machine, Toby Twirl, Orange Bicycle, Timebox, the Onyx and Dream Police. Many of these bands also appeared on “Discotheque” and “Lift Off” but they seem very obscure now because they didn’t have chart hits.

[John Green]

Good one,Mark.
Things were,of course,made more difficult by critics calling styles 'bubblegum' or 'lowbrow'.They could get over the problem of Blues' lyrics not being noticeably more Cole Porterish than the average Pop song,by explaining that it was a cry from the heart,etc.,while its sexy lyrics weren't impeded by notions of bourgeois morality...Ethnicity can make a difference in perceptions,too.White musicologists were at times a bit disconcerted to hear Blacks praise the music of Jimmy Rogers (the 'Singing Breakman'),though Rogers learnt guitar and some of his material from a Black singer.

[robchapman]

Just to throw a spanner in the works regarding 'bubblegum'. Here is a quote I used in my psych book from Top 40 radio pioneer Bill Stewart.

“I think that most programme directors fall into the ‘trick bag’. – feeling that they are playing their music for the record promoters ; or the people who live in the same apartment building or for the people they meet in places where you don’t run into average people. I keep reading everywhere about ‘bubblegum’ music. Well you ask the average person what bubblegum music is and he won’t know. Try it sometime. Stand on a street corner and ask the first ten people who pass; “what do you think about bubblegum music?” They won’t know what the hell you are talking about. And yet this is one of the most accepted terms in our industry.”

Food for thought eh? And of course he's right. At some point in the late 1960s bubblegum became a pejorative term used by rock fans to dismiss mere pop music and was applied to everything from Sugar Sugar and The Cufflinks to Crystal Blue Persuasion and Mony Mony. But there never was a genre called bubblegum, just like there was never a period called 'the girl group era'.

[johnpoole]

As I recall Bubblegum first turned up as a musical description in 1968 for the 1910 Fruitgum Company, the Ohio Express, and other Kasenetz-Katz productions. I don't remember it being used in connection with non Kasenetz-Katz recordings until later.

[robchapman]

In the UK I think you're right John, but in the USA it was more widely attributed (all those 'food' records that weren't hits here, Candy Apple Cotton Candy by Pat Shannon, Jam Up Jelly Tight by Tommy Roe, which wasn't about jam at all of course and was in fact very lewd, etc etc) Lemon Pipers, 1910 Fruitgum Company and Crazy Elephant, all did some heavy tracks among the pap - Lemon Pipers used to play the Fillmore! Kazenatz Katz became a bit of an all encompassing franchise didn't it? The Standells final records were recorded by the KK session players for instance. And Graham Gouldman was a house writer with them for a while.

[johnpoole]

Aug 8, 2016 18:36:23 GMT robchapman said:

The Standells final records were recorded by the KK session players for instance

Not sure about that, although the Standells' song 'Try It' was covered by the Ohio Express.

The Shadows of Knight certainly did end up with KK, although their lead singer was the only remaining member by that time.

[robchapman]

My mistake John. Wrong Nuggets band! It was indeed Shadows of Knight. I think my mistake comes from the fact that The Standells had myriad line up changes and by the late sixties only bore the faintest resemblance to the original band. Again though it casts light on the idea of 'authenticity' that crops up in a few threads on here. Chocolate Watch Band didn't play on half of their 'classic' songs. David Axelrod sacked the original Electric Prunes from the Electric Prunes. Even ? and the Mysterions ended up as a completely different band to the ones who recorded 96 Tears. Funny how The Monkees took all the flack for being a manufactured band wasn't it? The practice was ubiquitous and as that wonderful recent Wrecking Crew doc shows it was the same bunch of session musicians on played on half of the 1960s anyway.

[Richard Marple]

I remember TOTP2 pointing out that at least 1 member of Edison Lighthouse managed to appear in another band on the same edition of TOTP.

The recent 10CC documentary mentions how all 4 members seemed to move a lot between bands & session work before coming together.

At least it's kept Pete Frame busy attempting to chart the line-ups of bands over the years.

[robchapman]

Aug 7, 2016 7:09:16 GMT Tony Walshaw said:

To return to the topic of 'what people did (or didn't) say', I think quotes have worked their way into the collective memory purely because they do survive.

One such is the newsreader who said "....and now the news, in English...." in the midst of an early Emperor Rosko show on Radio One.

If a recording of this did not survive, this anecdote would not be trotted out frequently at anniversaries etc.

Funnily enough Tony, when I was first involved in archive programming in the late eighties the Rosko show on which this took place (the very first Rosko show in fact on Sept 30 1967) was misfiled. The Rosko show filed as the first show was in fact the second or third. It found its way onto the collectors market as well, also misattributed as 'first show'. It was only when I mentioned the infamous (although not widely remembered) news in English comment, and the fact that I remembered Rosko playing Country Joe and The Fish on the first show that the Ps as Bs were summonsed and the correct show was located. Just shows how an anally retentive memory can have its uses! I remember the Country Joe record because in the week leading up to the launch, in an interview in The Daily Mirror I think, Rosko named some of the acts he would be featuring on his first show. A 12 year old kid doesn't forget a name like Country Joe and The Fish. It was the first time I heard them. The newsreader was John Dunn I believe, and someone later told me he thinks that Roger Moffat put him up to it. Ironically, when you listen to tapes of Rosko on Radio Caroline in the summer of 1966, you realise he toned it down a bit when he joined the BBC.

You're right about the collective memory. The famous 'General Postmasters wife' driving test comment that got Kenny Everett the sack in July 1970 was also believed missing or wiped for many years until it turned up in that excellent Christmas tribute to Everett that went out a few years back. Now of course everyone of a certain age claims they remember hearing it!!

[Richard Marple]

Another of Kenny's pranks was a competition to win a Ferrari which nearly sent the BBC switchboard into meltdown, this was sometime in the 1970s when we had to pre-record his shows, which meant they were quite innovative with his various tape manipulation tricks.

When announcing the winner of the above competition we wondered what all the fuss was about for a Dinky toy!

I did wonder if the tapes of these still exist.

[robchapman]

When was this Richard? When he was allowed back on the BBC after doing his penance? Shortly before he scarpered off to Capital? Do you remember when he presented one of those portentous Bank Holiday listeners Top 100s on Capital (when the top three was always some variation on Bohemian Rhapsody, I'm Not In Love, and Stairway To Heaven. Cue the top ten countdown from ten to two. Drum roll for the big number one. Everett plays the opening bars of 'Seven Little Girls Sitting In the Backseat'. You probably had to be there.

[Richard Marple]

Sorry I was mixing 2 things up.

Kenny did do a pre-recorded show after being reinstated by the BBC.

The Ferrari competition was at Capitol.

[johnpoole]

Aug 9, 2016 8:50:41 GMT robchapman said:

Chocolate Watch Band didn't play on half of their 'classic' songs. David Axelrod sacked the original Electric Prunes from the Electric Prunes. Even ? and the Mysterions ended up as a completely different band to the ones who recorded 96 Tears. Funny how The Monkees took all the flack for being a manufactured band wasn't it? The practice was ubiquitous and as that wonderful recent Wrecking Crew doc shows it was the same bunch of session musicians on played on half of the 1960s anyway.

The Chocolate Watch Band did play on their best known songs, although on the track later included on Nuggets - 'Let's Talk About Girls' - it was the group's lead vocalist who had been replaced without his knowledge by a session singer ... but some of their LP tracks (mainly instrumentals) were either by session musicians or a completely different group.

I think the flack for the Monkees was first generated by an interview with Mike Nesmith in which he complained about not being allowed to play on their records. I do seem to recall some controversy in the press in the following year about members of the Love Affair not having played on their hits although I doubt that anyone cared very much.

[Tony Walshaw]

Aug 7, 2016 14:35:12 GMT 1 markdixon said:

(M)any members of ‘the older generation’ in the 1960s enjoyed (or at least tolerated) pop music. It’s maybe not surprising that the beat era (1963-1966) was the high point of pop on British peak time television. Beat music had something for all the family. Teenagers liked the raucous nature of the music and parents appreciated the melodies and the cheerfulness. However, a notable divide opened up in 1966 between the ‘hipper’ youth-orientated pop acts and the harmless, family-friendly performers. Pop shows such as “Ready Steady Go!” vanished and peak-time TV catered much more for the musical tastes of the parents.

By the late Sixties, “Top of the Pops” was the only survivor from the earlier era. Pop stars such as Cilla Black and Tom Jones had their own peak-time shows of course, but these were light-entertainment programmes. New pop shows such as “Discotheque” and “Lift Off” were aimed at children and were shown in the late afternoon.

Yes, older relatives of mine seemed tolerant of the beat era. When things began to converge later in the decade, they followed Cilla, Lulu, Cliff, Tom Jones etc on the light entertainment path.

However, the Tom Jones shows were particularly interesting because he had 'heavy' guests like Janis Joplin and Arthur Brown. This was a characteristic of that particular period.

Aug 7, 2016 13:35:12 GMT markdixon said: