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Post by John Green on Jul 24, 2016 1:20:00 GMT
Re:- Juke Box Jury on the 12/12/64 I have'nt been able to find out which records were featured on that particular show, but if it's of any interest? I did find a letter from a NME reader in the (From You to Us) letters column. George Simpson (Doncaster) was writing in about The 12/12/64 show... I think Lonnie Donegan's remarks on "Juke Box Jury" about The Rolling Stones and other groups copying Negro rhythm-and-blues outfits amazing. Especially when you consider that Lonnie's early records - a whole string of them - were nothing but poor imitations of the great Negro Folk singer Huddie Ledbetter. Lonnie's first hit "Rock Island Line" was a Ledbetter speciality. What sort of git wouldn't just say 'Ledbelly'? Or maybe that was thought belittling? Rock Island Line is described as a blues/folk song by wikipedia.It's worth remembering that blues songs in the early 20th century were themselves influenced by Tin-pan Alley,folk music,county... Given that the BBC flew the unknown Bob Dylan to sing a few songs in a TV play (he was paid to act,too,but couldn't),it's possible that Howlin' Wolf had his expenses paid,I suppose,or was over here for other reasons.Wouldn't Smokestack Lightnin' have to be a reissue at that date? |
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Post by robchapman on Jul 24, 2016 10:30:05 GMT
Smokestack Lighnin' was a re-issue. Re-released June 1964. Made the Top 50. Which explains why I heard it so often on the radio as a kid. In fact as a ten year old I didn't even know it was a re-issue. And perhaps the reason he says Huddie Ledbetter is the same reason you correctly apostrophise Lightnin'. A purists attention to detail. The little things count!
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Post by John Green on Jul 24, 2016 14:06:52 GMT
Smokestack Lighnin' was a re-issue. Re-released June 1964. Made the Top 50. Which explains why I heard it so often on the radio as a kid. In fact as a ten year old I didn't even know it was a re-issue. And perhaps the reason he says Huddie Ledbetter is the same reason you correctly apostrophise Lightnin'. A purists attention to detail. The little things count! There's a bootleg of Dylan talking between songs about how some people change their names "But whatever they're called,they're the same people!".As an example,he mentions Ledbelly,but can't remember his given name.Cue someone from the audience shouting "Huddie Ledbetter!"... Where there was a last-minute change of guest for a show,it's a pity that the TV and Radio Times didn't publish corrections at a later date,as well as announcing that "instead of x,who is listed for this show,we've got y" at the start.(That wasn't the way it was put). |
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Post by robchapman on Jul 24, 2016 14:16:46 GMT
I'm a bit late to this thread, but I've got a few ideas relating to the post right at the beginning. I think it's convenient for many media people that so much pop footage from the Sixties is missing. It allows them to tell simpler stories about the Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Who etc. Nostalgia rock magazines and BBC4 rockumentaries are aimed at niche audiences, so it's probably easier for editors and producers to forget or ignore the fact that many of the bands they love started out in an era before niche marketing. Rock as a musical genre (distinct from beat, r 'n' b and rock 'n' roll) probably began about 1966. However, I don't think rock music became a distinct marketing category (separate from pop) until the end of the Sixties. For a few years rock was part of pop and pop had always been part of light entertainment. It can be argued that Led Zeppelin kicked off niche rock marketing in 1969 when they chose to release an album, but no singles. By 1972, the whole rock market was firmly established: the touring circuit, the late-night specialist TV programmes and the "serious" rock weeklies. The Who appeared on "Crackerjack" because it was just another promotional platform and they wanted to sell records. It probably didn't seem odd to them. Lots of more obscure bands also appeared on children's programmes. Many fans of the Creation are unlikely to know that they once appeared on the "Five O' Clock Club" because the footage is missing. Of course there were plenty of unlikely appearances by musicians on TV shows in the 70s, 80s and beyond, but many of these were probably due to the eccentric choices of producers rather than the result of routine promotional strategies. For example, Pere Ubu appeared on an edition of "Roland Rat: The Series" in 1988. I doubt that many Roland Rat fans went out and bought the album that Pere Ubu had out at the time. I think you hit several nails right on the head there Mark. Hard to disagree with any of it. I didn’t know about Creation on Five O’Clock Club. What song(s) did they do? Do you know? This sort of thing was the norm on American TV and they didn’t make a big deal of it either. Beau Brummels appearing in character in The Flintstones. Lesley Gore On Batman. The Seeds on Mother-In-Law. Even Frank Zappa and Tim Buckley on the Monkees. But then the footage exists for all of these so less mythology has grown up around them. Regarding “promotional platforms”, most shows were built around the booking of bands and light entertainment acts. I remember when I interviewed the great John Walters many years ago he told me the first advice he was given when he started off as a BBC radio producer was “first get your anchor band”. In other words get your resident in-session bands sorted even before the “gramophone records.” Didn’t matter whether it was the Northern Dance Orchestra or Skip Bifferty. Get your session bands sorted first and make sure they've got the sheet music. The Who probably didn’t even have any say in which show they played on, despite all the groovy rebel stuff we might apply to them now. I remember when I worked in the BBC offices in Manchester in the early/mid nineties the Mark Radcliffe show was the regions big flagship show and there was a big Whiteboard up on one wall showing all the acts marker penned in for the weeks and months ahead. Any agonizing was always over an unfilled guest spot. The records could always look after themselves. I bet it was the same with Crackerjack. “OK Leslie/Pip/Peter, next weeks song medley is…such and such. We need cabbages and pencils for the games. Oh and those nice boys from the Who are coming in at 2pm for a run through.” All grist to the light entertainment mill and as you say no big deal at all |
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Post by John Green on Jul 24, 2016 14:32:07 GMT
I always try to keep in mind that the 60's stars didn't grow up listening to 60's pop music.George Formby,The Carter Family,Frank Sinatra,Bing Crosby...Aunties and the rest of the family would have gramophones and records to play on them,there'd be plenty of classic musicals on TV,and radio in the UK would still be a source of Dance Band music.The Black and White Minstrals on TV.So Dylan does an album of Christmas songs,including Polka,the Beatles do children's songs and singalongs-everything from Yellow Submarine to When I'm 64,and I picture younger fans who grew up hearing rock on the radio saying "God.How can you listen to that junk?".
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Post by robchapman on Jul 24, 2016 15:08:48 GMT
Absolutely. Ray Davies's autobiography X-Ray is really good on this. Growing up in that extended family of his, mostly female, with a whole range of music to listen to and dance to and only a tiny proportion of it was rock and roll. Mark makes the point that all these BBC-4 docs are niche marketed these days. I don't know what that niche actually is, and I'd love to see a gender breakdown of the audience figures, because I suspect its mostly white baby boomer era males. Which eliminates a whole bunch of really interesting viewpoints as far as I'm concerned, and I don't even mean feminist ones. Most of the stuff talked about the generation gap in these docs is a crock. In the sixties I would suggest that working class mums in their thirties often had exactly the same pop tastes as their teenage daughters, both pre-rock (Frankie Lane, Bing Crosby, Perry Como, etc) and beat groups. In the case of Mums and daughters it was often a source of communality between the generations, not discord. I doubt if you'll be seeing this view expressed in a pop-doc any time soon. More to come in my generation gap rant soon. It's Sunday. I've got visitors. Got to dig out some suitable niche music to play. Beyonce and The Butthole Surfers it is then.
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Post by markdixon on Jul 24, 2016 16:47:21 GMT
The Creation appeared on "The Five O' Clock Club" on 26 July 1966. Nobody seems to know which song they performed, but judging by the dates it was likely to have been "Making Time", which was released as their debut single on 17 June 1966.
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Post by johnpoole on Jul 24, 2016 17:55:09 GMT
Given that the BBC flew the unknown Bob Dylan to sing a few songs in a TV play (he was paid to act,too,but couldn't),it's possible that Howlin' Wolf had his expenses paid,I suppose,or was over here for other reasons Howlin' Wolf had been in Europe since the end of September for the American Folk Blues Festival, followed by the Big City Blues Tour, and he then appeared at the Marquee Club (26th November) and Manchester Free Trade Hall (6th December) and maybe other dates accompanied with his guitar player Hubert Sumlin and Chris Barber's Band. They also recorded four tracks on 30th November (later released by Chris on a CD) which I guess were for broadcast on Saturday Club on 12th December genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/e9fc664aa5c34bc2883bfb89028c6aa6 |
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Post by johnpoole on Jul 24, 2016 18:06:27 GMT
The Who appeared on "Crackerjack" because it was just another promotional platform and they wanted to sell records. It probably didn't seem odd to them. Lots of more obscure bands also appeared on children's programmes. Many fans of the Creation are unlikely to know that they once appeared on the "Five O' Clock Club" because the footage is missing. The Who probably didn’t even have any say in which show they played on, despite all the groovy rebel stuff we might apply to them now. I remember when I worked in the BBC offices in Manchester in the early/mid nineties the Mark Radcliffe show was the regions big flagship show and there was a big Whiteboard up on one wall showing all the acts marker penned in for the weeks and months ahead. Any agonizing was always over an unfilled guest spot. The records could always look after themselves. I bet it was the same with Crackerjack. “OK Leslie/Pip/Peter, next weeks song medley is…such and such. We need cabbages and pencils for the games. Oh and those nice boys from the Who are coming in at 2pm for a run through.” All grist to the light entertainment mill and as you say no big deal at all The odd thing is that the Who appeared on Crackerjack in November 1968 after having previously avoided appearing on children's TV, and they mimed 'Magic Bus' which had been on release for several weeks and was already going down the chart after having peaked at No.22. But perhaps they needed the £100 in the pre-Tommy period. |
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Post by robertreinstein on Jul 25, 2016 13:56:54 GMT
I just wanted to chime in and say, as an American, this discussion is fascinating. I only wish I grew up watching the TV shows mentioned.
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Post by John Green on Jul 25, 2016 14:47:44 GMT
[/quote]The odd thing is that the Who appeared on Crackerjack in November 1968 after having previously avoided appearing on children's TV, and they mimed 'Magic Bus' which had been on release for several weeks and was already going down the chart after having peaked at No.22. But perhaps they needed the £100 in the pre-Tommy period.[/quote]
I suppose the title sounded very kid-friendly.
I canon TV remember hearing a lot of showtunes-Maria & There's a Place For Us from West Side Story,Secondhand Rose from Funny Girl-on the radio,while comedy sketch-shows would have musical interludes-everything from Nina and Frederick to The Rolling Stones on The Arthur Haynes Show.(The latter performance is on DVD).I'd often feel cheated by those interludes,since I wanted more comedy.It took me years to realise that Paul McCartney hadn't written 'Til There Was You (it was from the show The Music Man-which is about a con-merchant who persuades parents/the local community to buy instruments that the kids can learn to play.Art imitates life).
As well as pop/rock performers on kids' shows,you can bet that any reference to a top-ten song,and a waggle from the compare/comedian would get a laugh because everyone knew what he was on about.We're almost straying into pop panto territory here.
I'd also suggest that there was more foreign-language music around prior to the 60s than there was for a long time afterwards-at least it's the impression I get from seeing Carmen Miranda perform in Portuguese,and Deanna Durbin sing a Russian folk-song.
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Post by Richard Marple on Jul 25, 2016 17:04:14 GMT
The Two Ronnies seemed to be the last show to have a non-related musical interlude, which used to confuse me a bit when I was young.
I remember a BBC4 documentary a few years ago about music on TV that had quite a few clips of artists from overseas, mostly from the 1950s & 60s when you would be lucky to hear or see anything like that outside of the Eurovision Song Contest.
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Post by Tony Walshaw on Jul 26, 2016 6:37:56 GMT
John Peel's pragmatism towards musical history might have been useful for today's documentary-makers. If he indeed could remember things accurately, he could have told it as it was. Yes, this is another overlooked aspect of the psychedelic period. Traffic, The Who, Jethro Tull, Family etc could arrive in a van, and play at the club at the end of your street. And days later they would be in the top ten, or playing the Isle Of Wight. Most of the stuff talked about the generation gap in these docs is a crock. In the sixties I would suggest that working class mums in their thirties often had exactly the same pop tastes as their teenage daughters, both pre-rock (Frankie Lane, Bing Crosby, Perry Como, etc) and beat groups. In the case of Mums and daughters it was often a source of communality between the generations, not discord. I doubt if you'll be seeing this view expressed in a pop-doc any time soon. This hits upon how the earlier days of Radio One only had 'hip DJs' at times when the youth listened i.e. breakfast, lunchtime, evenings/weekends. During weekdays Jimmy Young and Terry Wogan were at the helm, and the housewife was the audience. This aspect has been overlooked or unknown since. This is how the likes of 'Little Arrows', 'Yummy Yummy Yummy', 'Dizzy', 'Everything Is Beautiful' and 'Chirpy Chirpy Cheep Cheep' became hits. The mums and pre-teen kids loved them. |
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Post by robchapman on Jul 26, 2016 8:22:08 GMT
The only bit I'd take issue with in that Tony is that 'housewifes' is synonymous with buying bubblegum pop. plenty of general pop fans bought the stuff you mention simply cos that's the kind of catchy pop they liked. I interviewed the DJ Andy Archer once for something i was writing on pirate radio and i asked him about playing Jimi Hendrix etc on the 10 am to midday show. "Plenty of housewives I know liked Jimi Hendrix" he replied. Another important thing that needs to be mentioned is that the school leaving age wasn't even raised to 16 until the late sixties. Plenty of 17 year old 'girls' that I knew, or knew of, in my home town in the late sixties had already been working as seamstresses or office typists for two years. They were wage earners (often top whack wage earners) and assuming they weren't already married with a kid (some were) had the ready money for records and gigs.
What's emerging from this splendid thread is just how diverse the landscape was. John's posting about foreign artists reminded me that for many years Radio Two used to have a late night 2 hour show called Pop Over Europe, which I really used to enjoy as it kept you in touch with what they were buying 'sur le continent' as Jimmy Young would insist on saying.
One of the most amazing facts that I unearthed during the research for my psych book was that you could still buy and install the sheet music of top west end musicals - Half A Sixpence etc - on to barrel organs as late as 1963!
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Post by Tony Walshaw on Jul 31, 2016 8:12:41 GMT
The only bit I'd take issue with in that Tony is that 'housewifes' is synonymous with buying bubblegum pop. plenty of general pop fans bought the stuff you mention simply cos that's the kind of catchy pop they liked. It proves the point that "all people are looking for is a song". In this respect I had a great aunty who liked Val Doonican's run of 60s hit singles, and bought his LPs. Meanwhile my grandad took a distinct liking to Peter Sarstedt 'Where Do You Go To My Lovely'. He had spent time working in North America in the 1930s and often sang the songs from that period. In contemporary UK he was acquainted with current music through his children and the wider family who were always around his town centre home, where the television was always switched on. He liked The Beatles because of their personalities and also because they 'looked neat and tidy' but was less keen on the 'scruffier' Rolling Stones. At the end of the street where he lived was a live music venue - indeed this was not just any old venue and between c.1965-70 hosted top acts on the circuit like Spencer Davis Group, The Who, Traffic, Jethro Tull, Arthur Brown, Free etc. This was the period identified above by Mark, whereby 'rock' as a genre was identifying itself, but hadn't quite become a distinct marketing category in itself. Thus such as the Paper Dolls and The Flirtations headlined as well, with all acts supported by prominent local bands. My grandad would be out and about in the neighbourhood, gathering firewood from the beach, going to work on nightshift, and he saw the activity around the gigs. He likely saw some of the top acts parking their vans and unloading their equipment. Before he died he laughed as he recalled "long-haired people walking by - you couldn't tell the difference between a boy or a girl". My great aunty and grandad would be over 100 years old now if they were still alive. They were not vindictive and I think they (& other older people) did not always begrudge younger people 'letting their hair down', as long as they remained respectful. I think older generations were a bit bemused by the new music and fashions of the 60s, but were not necessarily hostile to them. They had lived through things like two world wars and their aftermath, and the depressions between. I think they appreciated the relative prosperity of the 60s, and enjoyed the television entertainment that came into its own at that time. It is just that they preferred hand-rolled or pipe tobacco rather than spliffs....  |
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