Rediffusion TV Archive

[williammcgregor]

Oct 4, 2015 19:11:53 GMT christian bews said:

Oct 4, 2015 7:35:35 GMT Neil Hendry said:

Thanks for sharing William - a fine cast and storyline - would certainly be a great episode to find. 

I know STV was the only ITV company outside London to show 'uncle Charles' in January 1967 & showed it later on Friday nights @ 11pm at the same time as rediffusion. Did they link up with them to show it at the same time?

Re 'Uncle Charles' Kaleidoscope say:
Unusually for a Rediffusion drama series, only Scottish Television took the programme at the same time as the programme parent company (with the exception of "Mrs Sludge" which also played simultaneously in the Anglia and
Granada regions) and few other regions showed it at all.

Kaleidoscope has the Production Numbers and VT Numbers for all the episodes.

Uncle Charles
Alternate/Working Title: The Last Recollections Of My Uncle Charles.
A Rediffusion Television production. Usual duration 52 minutes.
Main regular credits: Based on the stories by Nigel Balchin. Music by Ron Grainer.
Main regular cast: Raymond Huntley(Uncle Charles(Charles Cobbold)), David Morton (John Merriman).

06.01.67 Patience (Postponed from 22.4.65) Ann Bell,Ralph Michael, Colin Jeavons.
13.01.67 Gentle Counsels Alfie Bass, Dudley Foster, Mark Burns. EXISTS.
20.01.67 Mrs Phillipe Is Hurt (Postponed from 29.4.65) Dandy Nicholls, John Horsley, Milo O'Shea.
27.01.67 Bars Of The Cage Charles Tingewell, Jeanette Sterke. Recorded 22.4.65.
03.02.67 The Forgetful Man (Postponed from 15.4.65) Richard Pearson, Valerie Gearon, Desmond Davies.
16.03.67 Mrs Sludge Gretchen Franklin, Gwen Cherrall, Terence Alexander. Recorded 06.05.65.
#.#.#. The Man And The Machine. Nigel Green, Christopher Benjamin, Howard Lang. Recorded 09.04.65.

[Peter Stirling]

Oct 5, 2015 22:36:23 GMT Neil Hendry said:

[

4. That some of the surviving RTV archive never made it to the BFI archive, because:

i) It was either not offered to the BFI in the first place or had already been ear-marked for another destination.

or:

ii) After been selected to be part of this 'representative sample',  boxed up and loaded into the lorries at the warehouse in Chiswick - some of it never actually arrived at the BFI.


Could one/ more of these theories above help explain why some series have no selected/ representative episodes at the BFI and also why so many of the 'big name' plays are also missing? There may also be other theories and contributory factors as to why the BFI holdings are more patchy and random than we would have anticipated. Please post if you have some further thoughts on this.


And finally (for now!):

Chris Perry of Kaleidoscope mentioned this to me which is particularly interesting:

'John Johnson always hinted that 'shedloads of film' was taken away privately rather than be junked but I don't know how true that was.'

We know that all the surviving RTV archive was taken by John Johnson/ Global Television Services to the warehouse in Chiswick in 1968. So the reference above to material being taken away 'privately' must refer to what happened with regards to the RTV archive when the warehouse was cleared in 1972.


So it is quite possible, that some of these programmes mentioned and listed by John Johnson in his article - that BFI wanted in their collection - were still available and intact when the negotiations took place in 1972. But perhaps they ended up in private hands instead of the vaults at the BFI?

Several people in the past have mentioned a pantechnicon type truck turning up, taking away loads of stuff and no one not very sure of where, or what happened to it next.

It was certainly not a waste container.

Once again there appears to be not a single videotape ever come to the surface from RTV's last years (apart from LWT's several repeats of half hour story) .You have major serials,light entertainment and the Star Performance series with notable American actors and made in colour (of which only two have surfaced in the US and one on film in the UK) ..Global supplied the film copies for international dist, ..but where have all the videotapes gone?
On the last hour of RTV a half hour story was shown, this has never been since, despite it having the collateral of being written by Leon Griffiths (Minder etc)

[richardfitzgerald]

Oct 8, 2015 12:33:19 GMT williammcgregor said:

Oct 4, 2015 19:11:53 GMT christian bews said:

Re 'Uncle Charles' Kaleidoscope say:
Unusually for a Rediffusion drama series, only Scottish Television took the programme at the same time as the programme parent company (with the exception of "Mrs Sludge" which also played simultaneously in the Anglia and
Granada regions) and few other regions showed it at all.

Kaleidoscope has the Production Numbers and VT Numbers for all the episodes.

Uncle Charles
Alternate/Working Title: The Last Recollections Of My Uncle Charles.
A Rediffusion Television production. Usual duration 52 minutes.
Main regular credits: Based on the stories by Nigel Balchin. Music by Ron Grainer.
Main regular cast: Raymond Huntley(Uncle Charles(Charles Cobbold)), David Morton (John Merriman).

06.01.67 Patience (Postponed from 22.4.65) Ann Bell,Ralph Michael, Colin Jeavons.
13.01.67 Gentle Counsels Alfie Bass, Dudley Foster, Mark Burns. EXISTS.
20.01.67 Mrs Phillipe Is Hurt (Postponed from 29.4.65) Dandy Nicholls, John Horsley, Milo O'Shea.
27.01.67 Bars Of The Cage Charles Tingewell, Jeanette Sterke. Recorded 22.4.65.
03.02.67 The Forgetful Man (Postponed from 15.4.65) Richard Pearson, Valerie Gearon, Desmond Davies.
16.03.67 Mrs Sludge Gretchen Franklin, Gwen Cherrall, Terence Alexander. Recorded 06.05.65.
#.#.#. The Man And The Machine. Nigel Green, Christopher Benjamin, Howard Lang. Recorded 09.04.65.

Interesting - my copy of the drama guide has all episodes junked. Has one been found recently?

[Peter Stirling]

Oct 8, 2015 23:10:26 GMT richardfitzgerald said:

Interesting - my copy of the drama guide has all episodes junked. Has one been found recently?

Yes, a TR was discovered a year or so back from a private collection and shown at a Kaleidoscope Event and is so rare that the (now late) writer had forgotten he had written it and the event was attended by member/s of the Nigel Balchin appreciation society I believe ?

[Neil Hendry]

Oct 8, 2015 13:42:50 GMT Peter Stirling said:

Several people in the past have mentioned a pantechnicon type truck turning up, taking away loads of stuff and no one not very sure of where, or what happened to it next.

It was certainly not a waste container.

Once again there appears to be not a single videotape ever come to the surface from RTV's last years (apart from LWT's several repeats of half hour story) .You have major serials,light entertainment and the Star Performance series with notable American actors and made in colour (of which only two have surfaced in the US and one on film in the UK). Global supplied the film copies for international dist, ..but where have all the videotapes gone?

On the last hour of RTV a half hour story was shown, this has never been since, despite it having the collateral of being written by Leon Griffiths (Minder etc

Peter - you have raised an interesting point. What did happen to RTV's videotapes?

RTV and BFI

The BFI and NFA were film based archives at the time of the negotiations with John Johnson (1972) and were also not focussed on the preservation of television programmes. So presumably, part of the negotiations revolved around not only the 'representative selection' of the RTV programmes that they would take, but also the format in which they would be preserved.

You also raised this point on The Informer Query thread:

"The BFI didn't want tape which was probably due to the fact it could not afford a VTR (about £50,000 in 1966 I think)? and had to wait to be given one that had been put out to grass."

There is some evidence, though, that the BFI has taken in videotape material in the past - but it wasn't their medium of choice. From the ME '405 Line TV' thread:

--> missingepisodes.proboards.com/thread/11197/405-line-vt

"...but we know from the Callan DVD's that even the BFI had been dumping 405 line tapes after doing less than stellar optical conversions..."

So if the BFI had taken any of RTV's videotapes, they may not have retained them after conversion.

RTV Videotapes - Telerecording To 16mm Film

The evidence suggests that RTV were diligent in creating 16mm telerecorded versions of their programmes, both in the pre-videotape era (i.e.before c. May 1958) and after - when videotaped programmes were transferred to 16mm film for the purposes of archiving and overseas sales. 

John Johnson explains how the 405 videotape format was fine for UK transmission in the extract below, but was not compatible overseas:

"The Film Library was moved to the National Film Archive. The collection includes some programme, like documentaries and This Week inserts that were actually shot on film, but the majority of the material was originally shot on video and later transferred to telerecordings. Younger members of the industry might well ask why we didn’t sell tape copies, as we do now. Britain was the first country with a regular television service, and we started with 405 lines, whilst all later television services, apart from Eire, used a higher line standard. So tapes weren’t interchangeable, and had to be transferred to telerecordings. These were made, to put it crudely, by pointing a film camera at an EBU Grade 1 monitor and shooting the pictures, although the later equipment, the Marconi 16 mm fast pull down machine, produced good quality negatives. Usually the material supplied to NFA included the negs, sep mag sound, and a comopt print. Some major series might also have a sep M&E. "

We have evidence that some programmes were copied onto videotape for transmission by other ITV regions. It was obviously a convenient and quick solution.

Did the RTV Videotaped Archive Survive?

So the question really is how much of RTV's surviving archive in 1968 was on videotape? Was videotape mainly used for it's convenience in programme production/ copying/ transmission within the UK, but not as a medium for longer term archiving? We know that costs of using/ editing videotape was very high in the early years but came down with time. So whilst we may not expect to find programmes surviving from the early years on tape, the later years should surely have a higher probability of surviving in this format.

There is the possibility though, that RTV/ BET sold off their videotapes to another ITV region when they ceased producing programmes and after the programmes they contained had been telerecorded onto 16mm film for archive purposes.  The most likely candidate being LWT to whom RTV leased their Wembley Studios in 1968 (see second extract below). But I've also read that 405 line videotape technology was already 'on it's way out' - so is it possible that most of the old RWT videotapes were just cleared out/ junked before LWT took over at the Studios? 

RTV produced most of their programmes at Wembley Studios - so most of their videotapes would have been there too:

Following extracts from:

--> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated-Rediffusion

"The company's administrative headquarters and transmission facilities were at Television House in Kingsway, London. Most programmes were produced at Wembley Studios in north-west London. However, a small basement studio at Television House, Studio 9, was occasionally used for current affairs programmes and was home to Ready Steady Go! during its first few years."

When RTV lost their London franchise, they leased their Wembley Studios to LWT. Were RTV's videotapes included in the deal along with the Studio's facilities?

"Following Rediffusion's loss of franchise and the creation of Thames Television, the Wembley studios were leased to the newly formed London Weekend Television by order of the ITA, and the company officially took control of the premises on Monday 6 May 1968 for a contractual minimum term of three years. London Weekend Television subsequently vacated the studios in the late summer of 1972."

and could this also help to explain this point that you made Peter?

"Once again there appears to be not a single videotape ever come to the surface from RTV's last years (apart from LWT's several repeats of half hour story)..."


It is possible that the RTV archive - located on the rooftop at Television House - only contained programmes that had already been telerecorded onto 16mm film at Wembley Studios. If this was the case, it would mean that the majority of the videotapes/ videotape archive was kept at Wembley - rather than at Television House.


Wembley Studios - Was The Archive Salvaged Too?

John Johnson's account is pretty clear that he salvaged everything from RTV Television House and took it to the warehouse in Chiswick - so if any videotape material was retained by RTV, it would presumably have been gathered up and taken there too. There is no mention in his account of taking material that was stored at the Wembley Studios. This may have been a oversight in his written account or that all material was in fact left at Wembley Studios.

--> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated-Rediffusion

"The station's archives were also kept at these properties, with the original programme library situated on the roof of Television House with some storage in the film vaults at Wembley Studios."

The question then is if the BFI didn't want taped programmes (+ especially if there was a ready 16mm telerecorded alternative), was the surviving videotape archive junked or did it end up in private collections in 1972? Assuming of course that John Johnson/ Global Television Services did retain some videotaped programmes within the RTV archive when it was salvaged in 1968.

Of course the same question applies to the RTV film archive that didn't end up at the BFI in 1972 - as a result of the negotiations with John Johnson.

[williammcgregor]

'Blackmail'

29/10/65

'The Case of the Phantom Lover'



and the synopsis

[Neil Hendry]

Oct 10, 2015 9:01:33 GMT williammcgregor said:

'Blackmail'

29/10/65

'The Case of the Phantom Lover'

Great! Another nice find William.

Blackmail was an RTV production that ran for two seasons. 

--> www.imdb.com/title/tt0367292/?ref_=ttep_ep_tt

"Blackmail, in all its meanings and forms, was the central theme of the episodes comprising this series."

1965 - Season 1 - 14 episodes
1966 - Season 2 - 13 episodes


Blackmail - Missing Episode Details 

Missing or incomplete episodes for programme BLACKMAIL.

--> www.lostshows.com/default.aspx?programme=00d7608b-a71e-4ffb-95ac-3c53c23bcff0

Series 1

10.09.65 Take Care Of Madam (missing)
24.09.65 A Nice Little Family Fiddle (missing)
01.10.65 The Red House (missing)
08.10.65 The Lowest Bidder (missing)
22.10.65 Call Me Friend (missing)
29.10.65 The Case Of The Phantom Lover (missing)
12.11.65 Tricks Of The Trade (missing)
19.11.65 Cobb (one or more sequences exist, but the complete programme is lost)
03.12.65 First Offender (missing)
10.12.65 Stockbrokers Are Smashing - But Bankers Are Better (missing)

Series 2

30.09.66 Care And Protection (missing)
14.10.66 Boys And Girls Commute To Play (missing)
21.10.66 The Set Up (missing)
28.10.66 A Man Of Reputation (missing)
04.11.66 Lone Rider (missing)
18.11.66 The Sound Of Distant Guns (missing)
02.12.66 Please Do Not Disturb (missing)
09.12.66 The Man Who Could See (missing)
16.12.66 Vacant Possession (missing)
23.12.66 I Love Ivor Diver... Why The Devil Doesn't He Love Me? (missing)

Out of an original total of 27 episodes, 19 episodes are missing and a further episode is incomplete.

Kaleidoscope has the source for all 27 episodes as 405 line videotape. And all the VT numbers for the episodes begin with 'W' - which could signify Wembley Studios

Both Series 1 and 2 episode duration was 46 minutes.

BFI Archives

The BFI holds footage for 7 episodes - all on 16mm film except for 'Cobb' which is an incomplete episode on Digital Betacam video, which they hold on loan.

The fact that most of the episodes survive in a 16mm film format follows a consistent pattern at RTV of programmes being transferred from the original videotape to film by telerecording - for the purposes of archiving/ overseas sales. 

BFI Database - 'Cobb' Entry Extract:

Digital Betacam - Video - 29.3 minutes - 625 - PAL - - TX date: 1965-11-18 - C-1470874
Master - Restricted access to preserved videotape

--> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betacam

"Betacam is a family of half-inch professional videocassette products developed by Sony in 1982."

So presumably this later Betacam video copy was made from original episode footage - presumably 16mm - which is/ was in a private collection?

Interesting to note that the first and last episodes of the two series are also missing - which was what John Johnson had mentioned in his article as the 'minimum' that he wanted the BFI to preserve from series - from the surviving RTV archive offered to them.


RTV Process - Wembley Studios:

This seems to be the 'process flow' for productions made at Wembley Studios during the 'video era' (i.e. Post March 1958):

1. Programme Recorded on Videotape at Wembley Studios --> 2. Telerecorded onto 16mm film at Wembley Studios --> 3. 16mm Film Transferred + Archived at Television House, Kingsway --> 4. Videotapes Wiped and Reused at Wembley Studios

RTV Process - Television House:

For the programmes made at the Television House studios, I think the process would have been as follows:

1. Programme Recorded on Videotape at Television House Studios --> 2. Telerecorded onto 16mm film at Wembley Studios --> 3. 16mm Film Transferred + Archived at Television House, Kingsway --> 4. Videotapes Wiped and Reused at Television House

And later in 1968, this 16mm film archive on the rooftop at Television House was moved to the warehouse in Chiswick by John Johnson.


Trivia

Also interesting how the life and work of actors 'intertwine' over the years. Ian Hendry worked with Nyree Dawn Porter in the first series of The Avengers in 1961 (Ep. 'Death on the Slipway') and again in 1980 - in the series For Maddie With Love. He also had two cameo parts in the films Simon and Laura (1955) and Sink The Bismarck (1960) in which Maurice Denham had significant roles; and of course The Lotus Eaters (1972/73) - during which the two became good friends.

[williammcgregor]

Thanks Neil

Also thanks for the extra bits of information

[richardfitzgerald]

Neil

have you come across a guy called Tony Rowlands who wrote a detailed article in the British Kinematographic Society (BKSTS) journal Image Technology on the fate of the ABC & Rediffusion archives in 1994?

[Neil Hendry]

Oct 11, 2015 1:00:01 GMT richardfitzgerald said:

Neil

have you come across a guy called Tony Rowlands who wrote a detailed article in the British Kinematographic Society (BKSTS) journal Image Technology on the fate of the ABC & Rediffusion archives in 1994?

Hi Richard

No, but I've just carried out a quick search and found this abstract/ entry for an article by Tony Rowlands from 1994, that I think may be the one you are referring too?

Update: Just been sent this link to the article - which starts on Page 32 of this 405 Alive, Issue 21 PDF. Well worth a read, it covers some great information on what happened to the ABC TV, RTV and Thames TV archives. Will add some further thoughts on it in due course.

Death of a Station - Tony Rowlands - April 1994 - Reproduced From Image Technology Journal

--> www.bvws.org.uk/publications/405alive/pdf/405_Alive_21.pdf



British Kinematograph Society (BKSTS)

--> www.bksts.com/secure/about.asp



Death of a Station - Tony Rowlands - April 1994 - Image Technology Journal

[Alan Turrell]

Neil i have to say although i can't anything new to this thread i'm finding it absolutely fascinating reading keep up the great work .

[Neil Hendry]

Oct 11, 2015 8:54:35 GMT Alan Turrell said:

Neil i have to say although i can't add anything new to this thread i'm finding it absolutely fascinating reading keep up the great work .

Thanks Alan - great to hear that you are enjoying it. It's bringing out the TV detective in me!

Great contributions from other members too - so hopefully we can continue to 'piece the puzzle' together - and see where that leads us.

To be continued...

[Alan Turrell]

Oct 11, 2015 8:54:35 GMT Alan Turrell said:

Neil i have to say although i can't add anything new to this thread i'm finding it absolutely fascinating reading keep up the great work .

[Neil Hendry]

Oct 11, 2015 8:51:38 GMT Neil Hendry said:

Oct 11, 2015 1:00:01 GMT richardfitzgerald said:

Neil

have you come across a guy called Tony Rowlands who wrote a detailed article in the British Kinematographic Society (BKSTS) journal Image Technology on the fate of the ABC & Rediffusion archives in 1994?

Hi Richard

No, but I've just carried out a quick search and found this abstract/ entry for an article by Tony Rowlands from 1994, that I think may be the one you are referring too?

Just read this article and a few things stand out.

Article: Death of a Station - Tony Rowlands - April 1994 - Reproduced From Image Technology Journal

--> www.bvws.org.uk/publications/405alive/pdf/405_Alive_21.pdf

The following are extracts taken from the description of what happened to the RTV archive.

Firstly:

"The corporate culture concerning their library of programmes was much the same as ABC TV. At their closedown however, the story is much happier as the National Film Archive were invited to ' help themselves' to any film before dumped; in fact the NFA rescued thousands of cans of film off the pavement outside the Rediffusion building just before it was to be taken away as scrap".

This is interesting but is at odds with John Johnson's personal account which states that he/ Global Television Services took all the film/ footage from RTV's Television House in Kingsway to the warehouse in Chiswick in 1968. The BFI/ NFA may be able to shed some light on this.

Surviving RTV Videotape Archive - In A Warehouse In 1979-1980?

This second extract refers to what happened to the RTV videotape archive. We have discussed this in previous posts - and suggested that much of it may have been wiped and reused - but this adds a new slant to things:

"What happened to the tape is still a mystery. Like ABC, Rediffusion had a vigorous wiping policy and masters were used for overseas sales, but strangely all the tape has disappeared. Having spoken to ex-staff members from the period, I have reason to believe that much of the tape at closedown was not wiped or dumped. I have been told that a large quantity of Rediffusion tape was seen in a particular warehouse less than fifteen years ago. Library Manager Brian Sammes, reports that the sale of extracts from the old Rediffusion Television archive is thriving".

The article refers a couple of times to master videotapes being 'used for overseas sales'. This could of course refer to the tapes being used to make 16mm telerecordings, but when he discusses this elsewhere in the article in the context of ABC TV, he seems quite clear that it refers to sending videotapes overseas for use by broadcasters.

The second point that jumps out is that he refers to 'Rediffusion tape was seen in a particular warehouse less than fifteen years ago' and thirdly 'that the sales of extracts from the old Rediffusion Television archive is thriving".

If this is accurate, the warehouse he mentions in this 1994 article, would have been in active use around 1979-1980 - and quite possibly for some time after.

This could be a very significant point. If we believe John Johnson's account, he and Global Television Services (GTS) had control of all of the surviving RTV archive up until 1972.  But Johnson only mentioned that the film archive at RTV's Television House was salvaged.

It is also conceivable that the surviving RTV videotape library was kept at Wembley Studios. If so, then these videotapes may have been taken away to the warehouse in Chiswick in 1968 - along with the film archive from Television House - or it could have ended up at another location/ warehouse. 

What does seem to be the case is that several years after the BFI had made their selection in 1972 - and the warehouse that Johnson/ GTS had rented in Chiswick had been emptied - some of the remaining RTV archive was still being stored in another warehouse.


RTV Material Found In Thames Archive

Lastly, Tony Rowlands mentions that when Thames TV closed down and their archive was sorted and cleared out - some programmes from the predecessors - ABC TV and RTV - were found:

"During the clear-out we found a number of programmes tucked away in the back of the vaults that belonged to our predecessors - including some lost episodes of This Week - one of which had never been transmitted - also Tempo, Sunday Break and Frontier. These were of course returned to their owners".


I've only extracted the information here which is relevant to RTV. There's lots of great information on ABC TV and Thames TV too, so well worth reading the article in full!

[richardfitzgerald]

It's a puzzle isn't it? Mr Rowlands' story from the ABC/Thames perspective is at odds with John Johnson's own recollections from the A-R side. But both suggest hundreds if not "thousands of cans" were collected by the NFA/BFI at some point following A-R's closure. I really think it would be worth BFI digging into their own admin files now to see if more light can be shed on what exactly they picked up/agreed to take. I also wonder if anything came of Tony's investigations into the mysterious warehouse though he clearly wasn't optimistic.

On a side note it's a pity this conversation wasn't held several years ago when I first posted up an extract from this article on the old version of this very forum. But as I recall I was accused of an outrageous copyright breach by a now ex-member who took great offense! Still better late than never!