|
|
Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 24, 2015 13:42:25 GMT
RTV's parent company was BET, did they sell the rights / archive? Richard - The short answer to this is yes. Here's a bit more information to understand the background to it all. When Thames TV was formed in 1968, the parent companies of RTV (i.e. BET) and ABC TV (i.e. ABPC) still retained ownership of their existing TV catalogues. Thames TV was formed as a new company owned by both ABPC (51%) and BET (49%) although they shared profits 50:50. For a while at least (until 1971), the RTV catalogue was marketed overseas by Global Television Services with the profits going to RTV/ BET. In 1972, the BFI took a lot of the archive material but the rights would still have belonged to RTV/ BET - although it seems that they no longer felt that there was any commercial potential in the surviving material . Over the years the rights to the surviving ABC and RTV archives have been bought and sold several times as a result of mergers/ takeovers and sales. At present, ABC's rights are owned by StudioCanal and RTV's by Archbuild Limited. BET History
BET was Rediffusion's largest shareholder and in 1983 they bought Rediffusion outright. --> www.rediffusion.info/betownership.htmlBET sold Rediffusion in the mid-80's. --> www.rediffusion.info/bet.htmlAs Rediffusion was a large company in itself - with many different facets/ markets - I am not sure whether RTV was still part of it or whether the TV rights had already been sold off separately. But by the mid-80's BET had certainly sold off Rediffusion. Tracking how the rights eventually ended up with Archbuild Limited is a topic to add to the do-list! RTV Rights + Archive Locations--> www.timdisneyarchive.com/telecine/rediffusion/"It should be noted that although Rediffusion no longer exists, all intellectual rights to the company’s programming belong to Archbuild Limited. Existing programmes are spread between Archbuild themselves, the British Film Institute, private film collectors and The Tim Disney Archive."
Background To The Formation of Thames TV --> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Associated-Rediffusion"Following changes to the ITV network structure, which resulted in the abandonment of the Midlands and North weekend franchises held by ABC Television, ABC lost all its franchises along with the rights to take over the Midlands, held by ATV, or the London Weekend franchise, awarded to the London Television Consortium. To preserve the sizeable ABC, the ITA proposed ABC and Rediffusion should form a new company: Thames Television. This was not a merger or "shot gun marriage" as is commonly stated and is an urban myth. ABPC, the parent company of ABC and BET, the parent company of Rediffusion, created Thames as a separate entity. Thames would use the resources and staff of ABC's Teddington Studios and Rediffusion's Television House. Rediffusion's parent company, BET, took a 49% stake in Thames, and was under-represented in the management of the new company. When Rediffusion objected to this, the ITA replied that either Thames took the new contract, or ABC took over. Rediffusion chose the former, and went off the air on 29 July 1968."
and: --> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Electric_Traction#Leisure_and_entertainment"By 1964, when Associated Rediffusion changed its name to Rediffusion London, its efforts had left it sitting on a mountain of cash. But in 1967 the Independent Television Authority ordered Rediffusion London to enter into a joint arrangement with Associated British Corporation, the holder of the weekend Midlands and North of England franchises, to form Thames Television. As a result of this re-allocation of interests, ABC took a controlling 51% interest in Thames Television, although the profits were split 50/50 between ABC and Rediffusion. Thames Television was given the new weekday London franchise. BET sold its interest in Thames Television in 1985."
The rights to Thames TV have been bought and sold over the years and are currently owned by Fremantle Media |
|
|
|
Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 24, 2015 14:41:22 GMT
Website: Some useful information on RTV/ A-R RTV - History, Programmes, TV Listings/ Schedules and More --> www.78rpm.co.uk/ar.htm
|
|
|
|
Post by Richard Marple on Sept 24, 2015 16:58:20 GMT
Thanks for filling me in, it's a complicated series of changes over the years.
|
|
|
|
Post by richardfitzgerald on Sept 24, 2015 23:03:52 GMT
John Green has found some exceptionally rare items from the AR/ RTV archive which will be released on 26 October 2015 on a Network DVD Boxset. See his post above - from the ITV at 60 Boxset thread (ME thread link below). No Hiding Place - ep. 'A Bird To Watch The Marbles' Mystery Bag - ep. 'Lockhart Finds A Note' Crane - ep. 'A Cargo of Cornflour' Our Man At St. Marks - ep. 'The Facts Of Life' The question is where did Network locate these ME's, as they are not held at the BFI. And do they have any more in the pipe-line?! ME Thread - ITV at 60 Boxset--> missingepisodes.proboards.com/post/134252/threadActually the Kaleidoscope drama guide only lists the No Hiding Place/Lockhart episodes as junked while the latter two are both listing as existing with the master prints held by BFI. Oh and not only does the Entertaining Mr Sloan play exist (on a 35mm TR) but so do two other plays by Joe Orton broadcast in the Seven Deadly Sins/Virtues series. I've been cross-referencing results from the Guide with the lists you quoted from John Johnson earlier in this thread with some interesting results. As a result I have developed a theory which I'll expand on tomorrow.....! |
|
|
|
Post by Neil Hendry on Sept 28, 2015 7:53:08 GMT
Actually the Kaleidoscope drama guide only lists the No Hiding Place/Lockhart episodes as junked while the latter two are both listing as existing with the master prints held by BFI. Oh and not only does the Entertaining Mr Sloan play exist (on a 35mm TR) but so do two other plays by Joe Orton broadcast in the Seven Deadly Sins/Virtues series. I've been cross-referencing results from the Guide with the lists you quoted from John Johnson earlier in this thread with some interesting results. As a result I have developed a theory which I'll expand on tomorrow.....! Richard - Great! Please share your theory when you get a moment. Thanks. |
|
|
|
Post by richardfitzgerald on Sept 29, 2015 22:22:17 GMT
Actually the Kaleidoscope drama guide only lists the No Hiding Place/Lockhart episodes as junked while the latter two are both listing as existing with the master prints held by BFI. Oh and not only does the Entertaining Mr Sloan play exist (on a 35mm TR) but so do two other plays by Joe Orton broadcast in the Seven Deadly Sins/Virtues series. I've been cross-referencing results from the Guide with the lists you quoted from John Johnson earlier in this thread with some interesting results. As a result I have developed a theory which I'll expand on tomorrow.....! Richard - Great! Please share your theory when you get a moment. Thanks. Hi Neil, don't have time tonight and it will just be speculation - but speculation based on exactly what John Johnson previously wrote and what the Kaleidoscope guide says currently exists of Rediffusion output. In the meantime I think you ought to contact Phil Morris to see if he's turned up anything of relevance to you as per the separate thread here: Phil Morris finds other stuff than Dr Who - but he never gets asked about it! |
|
|
|
Post by williammcgregor on Oct 3, 2015 10:43:49 GMT
Blackmail
"The Man Who Could See" details from the Scottish TV Times...
9th December 1966
STV 9:10pm to 10:05pm
IAN HENDRY
JOHN RONANE
The Man Who Could See
by Peter Wildeblood
with
CLIVE DUNN
WILLIAM MARLOWE
Ronnie Wade.................Ian Hendry
Mr Andrews..................John Ronane
Smallbone...................Clive Dunn
Alan........................William Marlowe
'Rosie Lee'.................Bernard Sharpe
Designer Frank Nerine
Associate Producer John Whitney
Story Editor Reuben Ship
Director Michael Lindsay Hogg
Producer Stella Richman
Synopsis: Alan has the most coveted cell in the prison block, the only one with a view - and nothing will stop Ronnie from getting it.
Rediffusion Network Production.
|
|
|
|
Post by Neil Hendry on Oct 4, 2015 7:35:35 GMT
Blackmail "The Man Who Could See" details from the Scottish TV Times... 9th December 1966 Thanks for sharing William - a fine cast and storyline - would certainly be a great episode to find. I don't know how STV received this show - whether it was on videotape, 16 mm film or if there was there a 'live' transmission from London. But imDB list the original transmission date as 5th December 1966, so if this is correct, it could be that it was then sent to STV (and possibly other regions) on tape/ film for transmission on this later date mentioned in the Scottish TV Times listing. Blackmail (1965 – 1966) --> www.imdb.com/title/tt0367292/Blackmail is a dramatic series that originally aired on ITV in the United Kingdom. The series ran for two seasons, from September 10, 1965 to December 19, 1966. The first season contains 14 one-hour episodes and the second season contains 13 episodes, providing a total of 27 episodes. The episodes share a common theme of blackmail, but are otherwise unrelated. The cast and crew are generally different for each episode, and the episodes do not share any characters or plots.
Ian Hendry appeared in two episodes: The Case Of The Phantom Lover (1965) The Man Who Could See (1966) |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Wilson on Oct 4, 2015 19:00:36 GMT
When might we get an update on the recent A-R discovery. Only HMS Paradise episode has been confirmed so far, right?
|
|
|
|
Post by Neil Hendry on Oct 4, 2015 19:09:00 GMT
When might we get an update on the recent A-R discovery. Only HMS Paradise episode has been confirmed so far, right? The announcement/ update was made last time on the Kaleidoscope Facebook Group by Tim Disney (of the Tim Disney Archive) who negotiated with the private collector to obtain the RTV footage. I don't know the schedule for announcements on their other 'finds'. --> www.facebook.com/groups/213621825197/Will copy any further updates here - as and when they are posted on Facebook. |
|
|
|
Post by christian bews on Oct 4, 2015 19:11:53 GMT
Blackmail "The Man Who Could See" details from the Scottish TV Times... 9th December 1966 Thanks for sharing William - a fine cast and storyline - would certainly be a great episode to find. I don't know how STV received this show - whether it was on videotape, 16 mm film or if there was there a 'live' transmission from London. But imDB list the original transmission date as 5th December 1966, so if this is correct, it could be that it was then sent to STV (and possibly other regions) on tape/ film for transmission on this later date mentioned in the Scottish TV Times listing. Blackmail (1965 – 1966) --> www.imdb.com/title/tt0367292/Blackmail is a dramatic series that originally aired on ITV in the United Kingdom. The series ran for two seasons, from September 10, 1965 to December 19, 1966. The first season contains 14 one-hour episodes and the second season contains 13 episodes, providing a total of 27 episodes. The episodes share a common theme of blackmail, but are otherwise unrelated. The cast and crew are generally different for each episode, and the episodes do not share any characters or plots.
Ian Hendry appeared in two episodes: The Case Of The Phantom Lover (1965) The Man Who Could See (1966) I know STV was the only ITV company outside London to show 'uncle Charles' in January 1967 & showed it later on Friday nights @ 11pm at the same time as rediffusion. Did they link up with them to show it at the same time? |
|
|
|
Post by Neil Hendry on Oct 4, 2015 19:32:27 GMT
I know STV was the only ITV company outside London to show 'uncle Charles' in January 1967 & showed it later on Friday nights @ 11pm at the same time as rediffusion. Did they link up with them to show it at the same time? Christian - I don't know the answer for this particular show, but the information we have suggests that copies of programmes were made on film/ tape for some RTV productions (and those made by ATV, ABC and Granada) - for broadcast by the 10 smaller ITV regions - either at a later date or at the same scheduled time. Whether it was possible - technically - to set up an RTV 'live' network feed from London that could be shared at the same time with STV (and other regions) is something that would need further research. Shared network feeds between ITV regions did occur, but this is not an area that I've done a lot of reading on to date. I do know though that ABC made copies of programmes on videotape for broadcast by other ITV regions - at the same scheduled time. The Avengers, Series 1 for example. Extract of RTV booklet from 1967 - reproduced on this website. --> www.transdiffusion.org/2004/01/01/wembley2 Extract:A NOTE ON ITV Independent Television was set up by an Act of Parliament in 1954. A public corporation, the Independent Television Authority (ITA), was authorised to provide television programmes, financed by advertisements, in competition with the existing non-commercial television service of the BBC. The ITA have appointed 14 different programme companies to produce the programmes of Independent Television. In the three largest areas of population – London, the Midlands and the North of England – four companies divide between them the task of providing programmes. In each of the 10 other areas a single company is responsible for the full week’s programmes. Since 1955 Rediffusion Television (originally Associated-Rediffusion) has been providing the London weekday programmes of ITV. Together with the three other major companies in London, the Midlands and the North (ATV Network, ABC Television and Granada Television) Rediffusion provides a network service of programmes which are seen in the 10 smaller regional areas. Many of these programmes are recorded or are on film and are distributed overseas by Global Television Services (3 Vere Street, London, W.1) acting as agents for Rediffusion Television. The 10 smaller regional areas were Anglia, Border, Channel, Grampian, Scottish TV, Southern, TWW, Tyne Tees, Ulster, Westward. |
|
|
|
Post by richardfitzgerald on Oct 4, 2015 23:59:50 GMT
Actually the Kaleidoscope drama guide only lists the No Hiding Place/Lockhart episodes as junked while the latter two are both listing as existing with the master prints held by BFI. Oh and not only does the Entertaining Mr Sloan play exist (on a 35mm TR) but so do two other plays by Joe Orton broadcast in the Seven Deadly Sins/Virtues series. I've been cross-referencing results from the Guide with the lists you quoted from John Johnson earlier in this thread with some interesting results. As a result I have developed a theory which I'll expand on tomorrow.....! Richard - Great! Please share your theory when you get a moment. Thanks. Okay here goes - with the disclaimer that the following is speculation that I've run past Chris Perry who remains doubtful of it! "We would like your some of your plays with big stars (such as Judi Dench and Peter Sellers) and the Pinters and Potters, but not the quizzes” [my emphasis] You will have seen John Johnson's description of how he preserved a "reasonable selection" (his own words) of the AR archive on the first page of this thread. This was written by John about 10 years ago for a Kaleidoscope event and he was of course talking about experiences from 30 years earlier still. So the "memory cheats" and all that - but while keeping this in mind look again at the sentence above. Why does he specifically include Peter Sellers as an example here, not a performer hitherto known for undertaking any dramatic TV work? It's not a random choice because he goes on to list the exact performances Sellers appeared in, as well as similar examples from indeed Judi Dench and a host of others. Here's that list again, tidied up by me and cross-referenced with the listings of the Kaleidoscope ITV drama guide for AR holdings. See if you can spot a recurring theme.....: This seems very odd to me - John Johnson went to a great deal of trouble to compile this list yet virtually none of these examples of plays "with big stars" officially exist in any archive even though these would have been exactly the type of material the BFI always wanted to take from him, as he described it! Okay maybe this was just a retrospective compilation made 30 years on to demonstrate the range of talent Rediffusion helped launch - but that's not the way John Johnson wrote the article; he mentions the BFI conversation asking for the "big name" plays, includes a couple of "big names" as examples of what they were talking about and then gives a specific line by line account of these "big names" and the exact dates they made their debuts. It reads to me more like a list of the plays he offered to the BFI and in that context makes perfect sense as a selection. What doesn't make sense is why so little of A-R's drama output like these plays is listed as existing when Johnson donated "hundreds of reels" to the BFI. Of course there were many documentary/current affairs series such as This Week included among this total but what about the "representative selection" from Rediffusion drama series? Remember the "keep the first and last episodes and a few significant others from the run" policy that he said he applied to No Hiding Place? But a look at the Kal guide shows only one episode is held by the BFI from the first six seasons of No Hiding Place that pre-dates the Missing Believed Wiped initiative (three others have been returned since). A half dozen exist from season seven and a couple from seasons 8 to 10. While nothing is held of the direct predecessors Murder Bag and Echo Four two. This doesn't seem to to demonstrate the selection process John Johnson described. Indeed let's look at other A-R drama series; do they show a pattern of selection in their survival rates (as far as BFI holdings go)? Crane and The Informer have already been mentioned as examples whereby, yes if not the first and last episodes, ones close to them are shown as being held in the BFI archive. But if it's true for Crane why is it not true for its contemporary the even more popular Top Secret starring William Franklyn? If selections were made for The Informer, why not for its popular contemporary series the Ratcatchers which just has its opening episode surviving (but not as a BFI holding) and various film sequences returned post 1996 as part of Missing Believed Wiped. Indeed why do no examples at all exist from various other series such as Tales of Mystery and Somerset Maugham Hour? Indeed the pattern of what actually is held in the BFI seems to be much more random than what would be expected given the care John Johnson took in his compilation - major plays with rising stars don't exist, while unfamiliar plays with unfamiliar cast lists do - even a major Pinter from 1960 The Birthday Party is listed as missing. My speculation (and remember this IS only speculation) is that Mr Johnson did make a more consistent selection than the existing holdings suggest and that somewhere in the BFI archive there are still uncatalogued cans of film that hold valuable historical material waiting to be catalogued. The easiest way to a definitive answer (and saving a lot of potentially fruitless trawling through these holdings) would be to dig out the original correspondence between John Johnson and the BFI which would list what they agreed to take. Unless of course it's been junked.......... |
|
|
|
Post by richardwoods on Oct 5, 2015 17:44:30 GMT
Informed speculation is always useful Richard. The theory seems entirely plausible to me.
|
|
|
|
Post by Neil Hendry on Oct 5, 2015 22:36:23 GMT
Okay here goes - with the disclaimer that the following is speculation that I've run past Chris Perry who remains doubtful of it! "We would like your some of your plays with big stars (such as Judi Dench and Peter Sellers) and the Pinters and Potters, but not the quizzes” [my emphasis] You will have seen John Johnson's description of how he preserved a "reasonable selection" (his own words) of the AR archive on the first page of this thread. This was written by John about 10 years ago for a Kaleidoscope event and he was of course talking about experiences from 30 years earlier still. So the "memory cheats" and all that - but while keeping this in mind look again at the sentence above. Why Thanks for taking the time to do this research Richard - and for sharing your thoughts/ theory here. This is exactly the kind of questioning and 'pattern finding' that we need to help drive the discussion on this thread. You've raised some really interesting points here and highlighted what seems to be a large disconnect between the reasoned negotiations and demands made by John Johnson with the BFI - and what actually ended up in their archives at the end of the process. Before I get onto discussing the possible reasons behind this, I want to highlight a few points with regard to the background to all this - again referring to John Johnson's account of 'rescuing' the RTV archive. Firstly, John Johnson was meticulous and salvaged everything - all surviving RTV paperwork and film/ tapes. Paperwork:We know that John Johnson salvaged all the archive paperwork - although some had already been lost as a result of an earlier flood in the basement "The production paperwork was very important, as you cant sell programmes unless you also pay the residuals to writers and artists who had made them, and that meant preserving all the paperwork, yards of it, that supports every production. The first question was: what records did we have left? Lots of old files, dating back thirteen years, had been stored in the basement, where a main drain had overflowed and destroyed many early documents."
We also know John Johnson was meticulous in sorting, organising and filing the paperwork that did survive:
" A team of temps was brought in to weed and amalgamate all these departmental files into one Master Production File for every series and episode, and stored in over twenty filing cabinets" Footage:All surviving RTV footage was salvaged: " I quietly kept all the files and films, irrespective of sales potential, and fortunately nobody noticed that the cost got charged against income from overseas sales." Overseas SalesJohn Johnson and Global Television Services (GTS) were still a going concern - marketing RTV's programmes overseas up until 1971. So he had a vested interest in not only salvaging the RTV material and taking it for storage in the warehouse in Chiswick, but also cataloguing all the material so that he knew exactly what he 'had at his fingertips' i.e. What could be used for commercial purposes and what could not - because of the programme content or the lack of supporting paperwork. After-all, some of the profits from overseas sales were being diverted to pay for the warehouse that housed the archive - so GTS still had to bring in money. Negotiations With The BFIWhen John Johnson went to the BFI to discuss and negotiate with them in 1972, he must surely have had - at the very least - a master catalogue listing all the surviving RTV archive (i.e. programmes/ series and number of episodes). He couldn't very well just turn up at the BFI and say that he had the remaining RTV archive and do you want it! The BFI would have wanted to know what was in the RTV archive and what was being offered to them (maybe at a 'high level' initially) and John Johnson was - or so it appears - always meticulous and deliberate in his actions. Negotiations would have been made based on an offer, discussion, compromise and final selection. And for that process to occur, I think there must have been a detailed archive summary on the table. The Television Officer at the BFI (who we know was not keen on taking the archive initially) must have had some basis upon which he could make a reasoned decision. John Johnson reflected upon these initial discussions with the BFI and paraphrased the thoughts of the Television Officer as follows: ‘We would like your some of your plays with big stars (such as Judi Dench and Peter Sellers) and the Pinters and Potters, but not the quizzes”.
As Richard mentioned, this recollection seems quite specific in nature. It could have been an 'off-the-cuff' remark at the time by the Television Officer, but then John Johnson dug his heels in: "I protested this. I explained that I wanted to preserve a representative selection of all the RTV output over the years, not just the highbrow plays, but also mass audience material, such as quizzes like Double Your Money."
and: "I threatened to destroy all the material, including Pinter and Potter, unless we kept my representative selection."
So to enable this 'representative selection' to be created, John Johnson must surely have been some kind of master list/ catalogue which could have been used to highlight these programmes and the BFI must surely have been party to this. As Richard points out, the list of 'big name' stars in RTV plays included in John Johnson's article is certainly odd - given the actual records of surviving film/ footage. "This seems very odd to me - John Johnson went to a great deal of trouble to compile this list yet virtually none of these examples of plays "with big stars" officially exist in any archive even though these would have been exactly the type of material the BFI always wanted to take from him, as he described it! Okay maybe this was just a retrospective compilation made 30 years on to demonstrate the range of talent Rediffusion helped launch - but that's not the way John Johnson wrote the article; he mentions the BFI conversation asking for the "big name" plays, includes a couple of "big names" as examples of what they were talking about and then gives a specific line by line account of these "big names" and the exact dates they made their debuts.."
I totally agree Richard. There does indeed seem to be a large disconnect between John Johnson's recollections of his negotiations with the BFI, the list of 'big name' stars in RTV plays, the type of programmes that the BFI were keen on taking, the selection they finally agreed upon and the RTV material that is listed in the BFI archive today. You summed it up well: "Indeed the pattern of what actually is held in the BFI seems to be much more random than what would be expected given the care John Johnson took in his compilation.."
So something is obviously amiss. Possible theories: 1. John Johnson's knowledge of what actually remained in the RTV archive - stored in the warehouse in Chiswick - was inaccurate. And so the negotiations held with the BFI in 1972 was based on incorrect information. But John did seem to be very methodical person. 2. Some of the material in the RTV archive was removed from the warehouse in Chiswick - before negotiations started with the BFI - and the archive master catalogue/ list was not updated to reflect this. This could of course happened without John Johnson being aware of it. 3. The theory mentioned by Richard - that the material/ 'representative selection' was in fact deposited with the BFI but has not been catalogued correctly. If there is a 'paperwork trail' at the BFI which records the discussions held with John Johnson and the final agreed selection - then it may help clarify exactly what happened. The idea that the BFI hold more in their archive than they have listed on their database (or are aware of) may seem like wishful thinking - but it is still a valid theory that can't be ruled out just yet. I think this is definitely an area that needs further investigation and any paperwork/ information from the BFI may help to shine more light on the events. 4. That some of the surviving RTV archive never made it to the BFI archive, because: i) It was either not offered to the BFI in the first place or had already been ear-marked for another destination. or: ii) After been selected to be part of this 'representative sample', boxed up and loaded into the lorries at the warehouse in Chiswick - some of it never actually arrived at the BFI. Could one/ more of these theories above help explain why some series have no selected/ representative episodes at the BFI and also why so many of the 'big name' plays are also missing? There may also be other theories and contributory factors as to why the BFI holdings are more patchy and random than we would have anticipated. Please post if you have some further thoughts on this. And finally (for now!): Chris Perry of Kaleidoscope mentioned this to me which is particularly interesting: 'John Johnson always hinted that 'shedloads of film' was taken away privately rather than be junked but I don't know how true that was.'We know that all the surviving RTV archive was taken by John Johnson/ Global Television Services to the warehouse in Chiswick in 1968. So the reference above to material being taken away 'privately' must refer to what happened with regards to the RTV archive when the warehouse was cleared in 1972. So it is quite possible, that some of these programmes mentioned and listed by John Johnson in his article - that BFI wanted in their collection - were still available and intact when the negotiations took place in 1972. But perhaps they ended up in private hands instead of the vaults at the BFI? |
|
