I love these little spats. Nit pick away I say chaps. Its highly entertaining (and informative) stuff. As for more iconic early 60s drummers than Dave Clark, blimey that's hardly setting the bar very high is it? The Shadows had two for starters, Tony Meehan and Brian Bennett.
Rob perhaps you mean more ironic early 60's drummers when dealing with DC. Agreed Tony and Brian were really special as was Bobby Elliott of The Hollies.
Round 2 or is it 3 or 4 coming up.....
Not had a chance to repond to Patrick so here goes….
Mark Boulton said - Again, Alan White on The Beatles' Love Me Do. That's common knowledge now, but was it then? Or the later Beatles tracks where Paul played drums?
I reply - it's Andy White but i'm sure that's your typo Mark. Not sure Alan White was allowed to stay up that late in 1962 !!
I said - Of the 210 plus songs the Fabs recorded only a handful feature Macca on drums and at least a couple were because Ringo left the band for a week or two during the White album. So what else does Paul play on ? Not much at all and nothing significant.
Ringo was making a film when Ballad was made. They didn't base their entire career on it. That's only one song in over 200. Name 7 more out of the 200 plus.
Patrick said -
re Beatles songs minus Ringo on drums - 'Love Me Do' (2nd version) (no.1 overseas), 'Mr. Moonlight' (George on percussion), 'Yesterday' (no.1 overseas), 'Eleanor Rigby' (no.1), 'For No One','Within You Without You', 'Martha My Dear', 'Julia', 'The Ballad of John & Yoko' (no.1), 'Back in The USSR' (1976 UK chart hit on re-issue), 'Blackbird','Across The Universe'....
well he wanted 7 more - there's ELEVEN more...!
I respond -
In fairness Patrick i was talking about which songs Paul played drums on rather than Ringo but in reply - Yesterday/Eleanor Rigby/Within You Without You/Julia/Blackbird don't feature a drum kit at all so it's not as if Ringo was replaced for those by Paul or anyone else. If you wanna be picky you could say he didn't play tabla on WYWY (and Inner Light and Love You Too for that matter). Having experienced Ringo's bongo playing i think it's fair to say that that was a wise move ! Of course there's Dear Prudence (Paul), You Know My Name (Paul?), PS I Love You (Andy White).
Mr Moonlight (kit), Across The Universe (wildlife version - toms) and For No-one (kit on early takes, cymbals on final version) all feature Ringo on the drums.
In the big picture of The Beatles career i would still argue that Ballad Of John and Yoko is not significant, worldwide hit or not. If we listed their achievements we'd be here till next week before bringing Ballad up. I'm not convinced that a song being a big hit makes it relevant any more than it being a non-seller would make it irrelevant but i would agree that Ballad is more relevant than Agadoo or The Birdy Song though perhaps less so than The Velvet Underground albums for example.
As for the Love Me Do single - the take chosen for that all important first UK release was the Ringo version. Clearly it was considered "the one". The suspicion is that the master was lost very early on. How on earth did that happen ? Certainly they were not able to utilise the twin tracks of it for the Please Please Me album. Even the 2 track for She Loves You/I'll Get You went awol very quickly as they could not do a proper stereo mix for the USA, had to re-record the backing for the German version in January 1964 and use a fake stereo for A Collection Of Beatles Oldies. As the Andy White version still existed it appears it was therefore used from PPM album onwards. Using a needledrop just doesn't seem to have been commonplace in those days.
In fairness to both Dave Clark and Ringo, no-one slags of Charlie Watts for the Stones songs he's not drumming on and he was available if they'd waited an hour or two. Check the credits from Let It Bleed to Exile….Jimmy Miller plays drums on some very famous numbers yet no-one gives Charlie heat for that. I don't see why Ringo should take a bashing coz Paul plays on a very very small selection primarily when Ringo had either left the group or was away filming.
I said - How many George songs does John actually play on?
Patrick said - John Lennon WAS on George's; 'Don't Bother Me','You Like Me Too Much','I Need You' (Lennon besides playing guitar & backing vocals twiddling with the guitar while George played to help to get that effect),'Think For Yourself', 'If I Needed Someone'(Lennon sings backup vocals too), 'Taxman' (Lennon sings backup vocals), 'I Want To Tell You', 'Blue Jay Way' (Lennon on backup vocals), 'Only A Northern Song', 'It's All Too Much', and John can be seen playing on 'For You Blue' in 'Let it Be' (hence; 'Go Johnny Go' !)
John & George may have fallen out later & not been that close at times circa 'White Album'/'Abbey Road' (much to do with John's wife & George's cool relations I suspect) but certainly from 1962 to 1967-8 they did work together - and they WERE happily playing together on the closing portion of 'Abbey Road' each taking guitar solos in turn...while later George was happy in 1971 to contribute to John's 'Imagine' album & later to both; 'Free As A Bird' & 'Real Love' plus did his own tribute to John; 'All Those Years Ago'
I reply - Sure he sang on a bunch but what is he playing on I Want To Tell You (possibly inaudible guitar ?), Blue Jay Way, While My Guitar, Piggies, Long Long Long, Savoy Truffle, Something, Here Comes The Sun, I Me Mine, Old Brown Shoe, It's All Too Much, Northern Song ? I guess he could have ended up inaudible/mixed out. Again i won't include the Indian influenced numbers as none of the Fabs are playing on them. So after Revolver, very possibly not much really. I'm not altogether convinced he's playing on I Need You though i may be wrong. I think George is playing the acoustic and then dubbed on the volume pedal guitar later so John's not even, er playing with George's (guitar) knob.
Yes George is on the Imagine album (great slide work). Free As A Bird/Real Love were part of the Anthology project - call me cynical but George once said that the only reason for them to get together would be if they were broke. Well coincidentally, having been very very seriously ripped off by a business associate (related to Handmade Films) George was reportedly in big trouble potentially. Obviously the only way for the four of them to play together in some fashion was to retool a John demo as there was no way on earth John was going to attend the sessions ! A close look at the Anthology films and related footage reveals George obviously having some kind of problem with Paul. He doesn't half shoot some looks at times when they are together !
Show me the magazine / film where John is quoted first hand saying "Ringo wasn't even the best drummer in the Beatles". As mentioned that's been researched by Mark Lewisohn as a Jasper Carrot joke and in one of John's interviews shortly before his death (possibly the playboy interview) despite being (as usual) sometimes scathing about the others he calls Paul and Ringo the best bass player and drummer in the business.
Patrick said - happily playing together on guitar solo at end of Abbey Road
I reply - yes at Paul's suggestion and this was possibly the last time John,Paul and George were together save for the photo session at John's house in August
Shame. That solo section and I Want You are my personal faves from Abbey Road. All 4 sing and play their butts off on I Want You.
I'm not entirely convinced Abbey Road was quite as harmonious as is often suggested. John was absent for many sessions which by all accounts improved the atmosphere, then moved Yoko's bed into the studio which caused some trouble and then "the bitch took one of my biscuits" said George. Let's not also forget that at one point John supposedly demanded that his songs go on one side and Paul's on the other. Not sure where that leaves George on a two sided disc ! In fairness, John was very complimentary about George's two songs on Abbey Road and quite rightly so.
Well, blimey after all that still no RSG Blue-ray.
Shame. That solo section and I Want You are my personal faves from Abbey Road. All 4 sing and play their butts off on I Want You.