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Post by Paul McDermott on Sept 20, 2015 9:45:52 GMT
Best series opener in years. I was gripped from beginning to end. Agreed, Tony. Astonishingly good, on multiple levels. Its high range of visual interest was matched by the range of new places the cast are getting to go. Yes, there's fan service aplenty. But it's not there just for the sake of fan service. Quality will out, and the best works of the long and storied history of the series are front and centre as touchstones in the telling of a thrilling new adventure. Messrs Holmes, Maloney, Nation, Cusick - we salute you! Did the current team have to take such effort in getting the visuals as nice as they did, the narrow curved arches, the 60s Daleks, the colours? No, but they did this because they care for and love the show - that's why they're making it. And that's why many of us watch and appreciate them doing so. I was a big fan of Michelle Gomez last series and that's not changed a jot, merely jumped up a few notches. Forget Nehru jackets and beards kids, if you want to be an evil mastermind when you grow up, it's all about dressing like a Victorian nanny! The dynamic between Missy and Clara is very interesting, way more scope and range for things we've not seen before, since, well, ever, I'd say. Moffat isn't shy about articulating the unique perspective the two renegade Gallifreyans have and their regard for one another is not tediously one-dimensional. That leaves room to surprise and amuse the viewer, be they old hands or newbies turning in for the first time to see what all the fuss is about. Those tearing out their hair or kicking in their sets because Moffat is playing with the outrage of certain less relaxed viewers who feel they know the way the show should be - to wit, that there's two straight lines for Time Lords and Time Ladies and never the twain shall intermix - ask whether that's the only thing that brought you to the show at the start. If not, then look at what else we got this week and look for how sweet it is. UNIT aren't dolts. A global threat is shown, and Clara - minus the Doctor, but with their help - are up to facing it, and going toe to toe with Missy, sans Doctor. Moreover, she doesn't invite Clara to share an espresso and exploding UNIT officer or two at the Basingstoke roundabout - they go to the continent, looks like Italy to me. Cliffhangers are back with a vengeance - and we get a brilliant pre-title one to boot! Most of us would have sussed Skaro from the off, but how many without forewarning expected Junior Davros? Not me! There's clearly things afoot in Series 9 that will make more sense the further in we go. And that's as good a hook as any because what they've shown is intriguing. Why was Capaldi's Doctor on Skaro, before the Daleks arose? Why would he leave "that child" to die? Or come back to kill him with a Dalek gun? As before, I'm thinking we're going to see more than one of our Doctor. Maybe a Dalek duplicate, maybe a time-displaced one before the end of Deep Breath. Maybe "our" version and both others? There's a shot in Listen where he's seated at Clara's bedroom mirror, and it splits the Doctor's reflection three ways. Past, present, future? Id, ego, superego? Who knows? But ten years into the new series, it's a fun way to play with the concept of The Three Doctors, perhaps? I can also see parallels to what Moffat did at the start of Series 6 with the Doctor being killed. We're told at the start of this new ep he's resigned to being dead very soon, hence the confession dial. Which Doctor? When? What is his regret? Time will tell! And I daresay not all the pieces will be obvious until the end of the run, in another eleven weeks! Next week is beginning to firm up to a nice counterpoint to Death In Heaven, I think. The Doctor didn't want an army of Cybermen to fight his battles, of course. But Davros I suspect feels he's mentally and emotionally broken his arch enemy and will relinquish his place in the Dalek hierarchy (such as it is, of course) to the Doctor, dying happy in the knowledge that he's beaten him and secured the victory of his creations and his point of view throughout time and space. Moreover, he's had this ace up his sleeve for centuries, without the earlier Doctors having the slightest clue what was ahead of them. It brings to mind Number 6 at the end of The Prisoner, being offered the chance to rule The Village, or leave. I daresay the Doctor won't get quite such a range of options regarding his rather sticky plight on Skaro! Missy is safe as houses with Clara in the TARDIS, I'd say, which has conveniently moved just far enough to give the Daleks (of all shapes, sizes and colours!) some much needed stick and get the Doctor out of the soup. But just how that'll go, I can't wait to find out! Off to watch the broadcast now, after catching it on iView! It's also pretty sweet that the instrument Pertwee rejected - the guitar - has been played with aplomb by the new guy who's seeming to me to outdo him for action and derring do. Falling out of an exploding plane without breaking a sweat last year was pretty fab, and the new run is bound to knock things up a notch. The teaser for next week sure gave me a moment of thinking it was using a sequence from Day Of The Daleks , in Auderley House, with Jon on the stairs! Whatever Davros is up to this year, it's a lot more interesting than how he's been used in many a moon. It brings to mind the Machiavellian scheming of the Whitaker Daleks. They knew how to lay traps for the Doctor, and seemed a bit more sneaky than the unsubtle battle tanks they've become of late. Great dialogue between the two "men of science" too, easily the equal of what we got in Genesis, I thought. And best of all, we didn't have what's coming shoehorned into a single ep - there's room to breathe and to hold our breath at the same time. What was that trick the Doctor showed Sarah in Terror Of The Zygons? A week is a long time in anticipation!
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Post by Tony Ingram on Sept 20, 2015 14:19:23 GMT
Best series opener in years. I was gripped from beginning to end. Can't say that I agree with you. I found it rather poorly done. Seriously? Amazing special effects, some great acting from Michelle Gomez and Julian Bleach, Peter Capaldi playing guitar while riding a tank, classic Daleks, footage from 70s and 80s stories, and a cantina scene worthy of Star Wars-what was poorly done about it?
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Post by Tony Ingram on Sept 20, 2015 14:22:42 GMT
I'd forgotten to mention the wonderful tribute to the original Dalek city design, Paul! I love those little touches. It still makes me smile every time they include the classic Dalek ship 'heartbeat' sound.
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Post by mattplace on Sept 20, 2015 14:53:12 GMT
I thought it was better than last year... but i really really disliked last year... The Beginning w great.. The Davros reveal was excellent... and the end was great too But the crap with the Tank and Guitar was back to the worst parts of last few seasons.' I am not a fan of Michelle Gomez's Missy... though again she was slightly less irritating to me this time.... but the lack of explanation for her survival and the passing it off so glibly was frustrating. Snakeman was a good looking villain. Skaro looked great too.. the City was impressive Hand minds.. i dont think i liked them Loved the vintage Daleks alongside new series and teletubby daleks. id give it a cautious thumb halfway up based on the start and the end... just skip the middle
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Post by Simon Smith on Sept 20, 2015 15:05:13 GMT
Can't say that I agree with you. I found it rather poorly done. Seriously? Amazing special effects, some great acting from Michelle Gomez and Julian Bleach, Peter Capaldi playing guitar while riding a tank, classic Daleks, footage from 70s and 80s stories, and a cantina scene worthy of Star Wars-what was poorly done about it? The whole thing felt very lazily done. Let's have Skaro, Davros. Daleks, Davros as a boy, UNIT, Kate Stewart, a rather bad Star Wars copycat sequence, throw in some continuity references, add Missy(ugh!), and mix. It just felt like they thought if they could stuff it with enough things then people would miss what rubbish it really was.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Sept 20, 2015 15:22:17 GMT
Seriously? Amazing special effects, some great acting from Michelle Gomez and Julian Bleach, Peter Capaldi playing guitar while riding a tank, classic Daleks, footage from 70s and 80s stories, and a cantina scene worthy of Star Wars-what was poorly done about it? The whole thing felt very lazily done. Let's have Skaro, Davros. Daleks, Davros as a boy, UNIT, Kate Stewart, a rather bad Star Wars copycat sequence, throw in some continuity references, add Missy(ugh!), and mix. It just felt like they thought if they could stuff it with enough things then people would miss what rubbish it really was. "Rubbish"!!? "Lazily done"? thought went into that episode. Good writing and, as mentioned earlier, attention to detail-there was certainly nothing "lazy" about it. I just don't understand what some people want from this programme.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Sept 20, 2015 15:27:00 GMT
I thought it was better than last year... but i really really disliked last year... The Beginning w great.. The Davros reveal was excellent... and the end was great too But the crap with the Tank and Guitar was back to the worst parts of last few seasons.' I am not a fan of Michelle Gomez's Missy... though again she was slightly less irritating to me this time.... but the lack of explanation for her survival and the passing it off so glibly was frustrating. Snakeman was a good looking villain. Skaro looked great too.. the City was impressive Hand minds.. i dont think i liked them Loved the vintage Daleks alongside new series and teletubby daleks. id give it a cautious thumb halfway up based on the start and the end... just skip the middle I don't think the new paradigm Daleks were in it, were they? I've watched it twice now and couldn't see any. The tank scene seems to have divided the audience pretty much down the middle-some thought it was ridiculous, some thought it was great fun (I know I did). And the lack of explanation for Missy's survival was a deliberate choice on Moffat's part, apparently; just because it always happened in the eighties.
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Post by Richard Marple on Sept 20, 2015 19:57:55 GMT
The whole thing felt very lazily done. Let's have Skaro, Davros. Daleks, Davros as a boy, UNIT, Kate Stewart, a rather bad Star Wars copycat sequence, throw in some continuity references, add Missy(ugh!), and mix. It just felt like they thought if they could stuff it with enough things then people would miss what rubbish it really was. "Rubbish"!!? "Lazily done"? thought went into that episode. Good writing and, as mentioned earlier, attention to detail-there was certainly nothing "lazy" about it. I just don't understand what some people want from this programme. There are some fans of things (not just of Dr Who!) that never seem to be satisfied, picking in holes in even the best regarded stories.
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Post by Richard Marple on Sept 20, 2015 20:03:49 GMT
I thought it was better than last year... but i really really disliked last year... The Beginning w great.. The Davros reveal was excellent... and the end was great too But the crap with the Tank and Guitar was back to the worst parts of last few seasons.' I am not a fan of Michelle Gomez's Missy... though again she was slightly less irritating to me this time.... but the lack of explanation for her survival and the passing it off so glibly was frustrating. Snakeman was a good looking villain. Skaro looked great too.. the City was impressive Hand minds.. i dont think i liked them Loved the vintage Daleks alongside new series and teletubby daleks. id give it a cautious thumb halfway up based on the start and the end... just skip the middle I don't think the new paradigm Daleks were in it, were they? I've watched it twice now and couldn't see any. The tank scene seems to have divided the audience pretty much down the middle-some thought it was ridiculous, some thought it was great fun (I know I did). And the lack of explanation for Missy's survival was a deliberate choice on Moffat's part, apparently; just because it always happened in the eighties. I could see any Daleks of that style either, in fact I don't they were in the last time the Daleks features. I liked the tank scene even if it wasn't imported to the storyline. Anthony Ainley's Master had a habit of being able to turn up after being soundly defeated in his last encounter with the Doctor, so I guess they are continuing the trend.
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Post by Paul McDermott on Sept 21, 2015 1:14:40 GMT
The whole thing felt very lazily done. Let's have Skaro, Davros. Daleks, Davros as a boy, UNIT, Kate Stewart, a rather bad Star Wars copycat sequence, throw in some continuity references, add Missy(ugh!), and mix. It just felt like they thought if they could stuff it with enough things then people would miss what rubbish it really was. "Rubbish"!!? "Lazily done"? thought went into that episode. Good writing and, as mentioned earlier, attention to detail-there was certainly nothing "lazy" about it. I just don't understand what some people want from this programme. Why are folks upset? Those that are, and continue to watch, what's lacking for them? What's not "canon"? It's fair to say that Hartnell wouldn’t have uttered the word “dude”; Troughton wouldn’t have played a snatch of Roy Orbison on a guitar! (Well, the latter did take a stab at The Beatles on his recorder, so I wouldn’t completely rule him out!) In any case, what of this? If Capaldi was a whacked-out surfer Doctor, I’d be a bit antsy too. But that’s so removed from what we've got that it scarcely rates a mention. Maybe some prefer the weepy vain snogger in the tight suit over the current model, I can totally see that. (I know, Tennant’s better than that and a fine actor but I’m trying to illustrate a point as well as concede I don’t like all characterisations equally well, either!) But for many of us, indeed, more viewers globally than before, Capaldi’s Doctor is bringing home plenty to be very satisfied with, especially now last year's intentional slow burn is over and we've hit the ground running. And a large part of that speaks to both renewal and heritage in equal measure, a newly formulated balance that is hard to get right and proper to applaud when it happens. Consider: You want a more mature Doctor but not an antediluvian old fogey? There he is! Want one less accessible, more his own man? That’s him. Want one less concerned about freaking the mundanes by being smart in public, or asocial, even abrasive? Up there! Want one who we’re still getting to know a year later, who’s mysterious and unpredictable in ways we’ve not seen in a long while? Enjoy! How about one that isn’t interested in wearing a uniform, but has clothes and wears different styles to suit his mood? Done! Or one that eschews catch phrases? As per your request, the 12th Doctor! Of course there’s modern stylings - just as there were long ago, if you take a moment to think about what was presented in the 70s. (Heck, one could say Troughton started it the previous decade, really!) But that ability to renew itself is a strength of the series, provided it is capably handled. For all the stick that’s ladled out to the 80s as a run (by Dicks and others, even me) they’re still showcased in that clips reel in Davros’s sick room. Doctors 5 through 7 get a moment - it’s not just The Great Curator holding sway over the past. As pleased as I am to see a respectful and purposeful utilisation of the lineage of the series front and centre on screen, I do wish just a jigger of musical reference to great composers of times past would get a look-in. Hooray for Cusick, no question! We owe him as much as Nation and the Beeb do. But couldn’t we just have a tiny bit of Tristram Carey thrown in? It’s a quibblette, but his Skaro soundscape was so darn eerie I really don’t think it’s dated any more than the theme tune we’re still enjoying some 52 years later. About the only other minor element I was not quite overjoyed by was that Missy was shown getting about by means of that silly wrist band thing (vortex manipulator) as per Captain Jack. Bah! She’s a Time Lady, her kind surely transcended such simple devices when the universe was less than half its present size! A Time Ring, I’m down with. But this is just so common and cheap, a tawdry vulgarity unworthy of her. It’s like Delgado in Mind Of Evil getting ferried about in a hybrid compact or on a moped! The real "dog's unmentionables"! But given she’s perfectly able to offer double and triple feints to put her opponents in her power, I’d not rule it out just yet.
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Post by Paul McDermott on Sept 21, 2015 3:48:13 GMT
I thought it was better than last year... but i really really disliked last year... The Beginning w great.. The Davros reveal was excellent... and the end was great too But the crap with the Tank and Guitar was back to the worst parts of last few seasons.' I am not a fan of Michelle Gomez's Missy... though again she was slightly less irritating to me this time.... but the lack of explanation for her survival and the passing it off so glibly was frustrating. Snakeman was a good looking villain. Skaro looked great too.. the City was impressive Hand minds.. i dont think i liked them Loved the vintage Daleks alongside new series and teletubby daleks. id give it a cautious thumb halfway up based on the start and the end... just skip the middle Only one ep in and you're liking Series 9 better than Series 8, Matt? Be still my beating emoji! Seriously, very glad you can find things to enjoy. I'm hopeful that ratio will improve over the next eleven! The way things are shown in the trailer for Series 9, coupled with the profound anachronisms on show when Missy and Clara catch up with the dude with the axe, especially in that particular region of time and space, one can’t help but think of The Time Meddler. It’s clearly doing so with a knowing wink to the past, but I wonder if there’s more to it. It appears the Doctor is meddling with his own past as well as that of the Daleks, and that's risky business to put it mildly... Is it "our" Doctor or someone else, who looks like him? Guess we'll find out in the weeks ahead! Another thought that occurs to me about this Capaldi era is the primacy of nightmares. This is something that can be said to stretch back to Listen, and importantly has a connection to the Christmas special that bridges 8 and 9. The end of Last Christmas to me seems to have some unresolved issues as to chronology, and these make me wonder about whether they are going to influence what’s happening here, particularly given the Dream Crabs, which seem like they belong in a lab waste bin on Skaro alongside that clam that went for Harry's leg! And whilst we’re on creepy critters and a link to the dark places of the inside, dig Colony Sarff. Darn sight more scary than any previous Mara manifestations, regardless of whether he's exactly that or merely a tonal reflection of past horrors in creepy tune with what's on the menu this year. Another possibility speaks to the difficulty Missy has in finding the Doctor. That seems odd, not least as Davros’s scaly hireling is equally challenged to find him. Maybe the Doctor was hard to find because as Moffat says in his ep guide, here, www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-09-14/steven-moffats-exclusive-doctor-who-series-nine-episode-guidehe really had gone outside time and space altogether, like in Season 6! The Land of Fiction could also be seen as the land of dreams and nightmares, and there’s clearly plenty of the latter ahead this year. Perhaps the Matrix has some link to it, which may explain Missy. And if we’re going to the Land Of Fiction…well, I wouldn’t entirely rule out the Sherlock crossover (albeit a cameo) this year. The squelchy panel on the console that got used in Listen might very well be a means to going on voyages to realms quite beyond any we’ve seen before. We saw it used in Dark Water, to home in on Danny Pink. The Doctor spoke of going to “hell”, if that was what’s required. We’re seeing a blurring of science, myth, magic and mystery this year and this isn’t something alien to the show. We all recall the nod to 3 versions of Atlantis, I guess? The Sisterhood of Karn don't look like anything less than witches to me, and not the sort that need brooms to clear a room! If you remember what Moffat has hinted at for the series closer, in the episode guide he provided (see above) it’s pretty clear that going “into darkness” wasn’t just a nice soundbite for the Series 8 trailer. And once again, we’ve got the very capable hands of Rachel Talalay for director in 11 & 12. Hold tight! Here we go!
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Post by mattplace on Sept 21, 2015 5:30:48 GMT
I don't think the new paradigm Daleks were in it, were they? I've watched it twice now and couldn't see any. The tank scene seems to have divided the audience pretty much down the middle-some thought it was ridiculous, some thought it was great fun (I know I did). And the lack of explanation for Missy's survival was a deliberate choice on Moffat's part, apparently; just because it always happened in the eighties. I could see any Daleks of that style either, in fact I don't they were in the last time the Daleks features. I liked the tank scene even if it wasn't imported to the storyline. Anthony Ainley's Master had a habit of being able to turn up after being soundly defeated in his last encounter with the Doctor, so I guess they are continuing the trend. i mistook the red one... oopsie
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Post by Simon Smith on Sept 21, 2015 6:55:13 GMT
The whole thing felt very lazily done. Let's have Skaro, Davros. Daleks, Davros as a boy, UNIT, Kate Stewart, a rather bad Star Wars copycat sequence, throw in some continuity references, add Missy(ugh!), and mix. It just felt like they thought if they could stuff it with enough things then people would miss what rubbish it really was. "Rubbish"!!? "Lazily done"? thought went into that episode. Good writing and, as mentioned earlier, attention to detail-there was certainly nothing "lazy" about it. I just don't understand what some people want from this programme. We want it to be good. Like I said, this episode came across as lazy. There was little actual story, poor dialogue, and not much of anything. The thought process seems to have been: "Let's have Daleks! And Skaro! And let's show Davros as a boy! And let's have UNIT! And Kate Stewart! And Missy! And let's have Missy and Clara get exterminated!(We can always undo that later.) And let's have the Doctor being the one to cry 'Exterminate'! And let's have the Doctor in Middle Ages England with a tank, playing an electric guitar! And the Shadow Proclamation! The Sisterhood of Karn! Ooh, and the new Star Wars is coming out soon, so let's have some sequences that look like that. Wait, I can't help thinking we forgot something...." It's all 'This looks like Star Wars" or "Look, Classic Daleks", or "Davros as a boy"(didn't Big Finish already do that?). What was missing was a genuine reason to care. It's all good and well doing continuity references and bringing back old characters, but surely we have already learned that that alone is not enough to hold a show together? It actually needs a proper story. And not just a retread of a Classic story.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Sept 21, 2015 8:27:04 GMT
"Rubbish"!!? "Lazily done"? thought went into that episode. Good writing and, as mentioned earlier, attention to detail-there was certainly nothing "lazy" about it. I just don't understand what some people want from this programme. There are some fans of things (not just of Dr Who!) that never seem to be satisfied, picking in holes in even the best regarded stories. Too true. It's why I no longer visit most of the dedicated Doctor Who forums.
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Post by Tony Ingram on Sept 21, 2015 8:32:03 GMT
"Rubbish"!!? "Lazily done"? thought went into that episode. Good writing and, as mentioned earlier, attention to detail-there was certainly nothing "lazy" about it. I just don't understand what some people want from this programme. We want it to be good. Like I said, this episode came across as lazy. There was little actual story, poor dialogue, and not much of anything. The thought process seems to have been: "Let's have Daleks! And Skaro! And let's show Davros as a boy! And let's have UNIT! And Kate Stewart! And Missy! And let's have Missy and Clara get exterminated!(We can always undo that later.) And let's have the Doctor being the one to cry 'Exterminate'! And let's have the Doctor in Middle Ages England with a tank, playing an electric guitar! And the Shadow Proclamation! The Sisterhood of Karn! Ooh, and the new Star Wars is coming out soon, so let's have some sequences that look like that. Wait, I can't help thinking we forgot something...." It's all 'This looks like Star Wars" or "Look, Classic Daleks", or "Davros as a boy"(didn't Big Finish already do that?). What was missing was a genuine reason to care. It's all good and well doing continuity references and bringing back old characters, but surely we have already learned that that alone is not enough to hold a show together? It actually needs a proper story. And not just a retread of a Classic story. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. Come to think of it, given the majority of the reviews, I don't think most of the audience agrees with you, either. Oh, and I really like the dialogue.
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