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Post by Paul McDermott on Nov 30, 2013 7:16:46 GMT
The impending dawn of a new Doctor offers opportunities to reflect and wonder, about where things will go next for the series. The transition from Hartnell to Troughton was anything but a sure thing, and one could possibly make a case again in the swap from Troughton to Pertwee. The recent returns of missing stories had a phenomenal response: 40 year old B&W telly outselling the biggest new hit shows, the world over?! The Beeb can't be ignorant of this - and my hope is, it'll make them think hard about how best to approach the next stage of a hopefully refreshed, refocused, new series Who. As in the past, new blood in front of the camera is only half the equation - true balance comes from a changing of the guard in the production office too. Even if they've solid runs on the board - think Letts and Dicks giving way to Hinchcliffe and Holmes - new teams allow new leads to benefit from a real break from the past, an era of their own. What I think we've seen in the last couple of Doctors though, has been a sort of "play safe" approach. Compared to those eras mentioned, there's been precious little to distinguish them. For mine, that's less interesting for the viewer and the actor. To fully inhabit the role, to flex the creative muscles, one has to be quite a different take on what came before. Tennant in the early days gave an off the cuff remark about his incarnation being "a bit down with the kids". I am not sure that Smith ever really moved beyond that. Three Doctors in a row with the same basic persona seems a mistake. So if we were to see something revitalizing and fresh for Capaldi, what could it be like? Here's some of my ideas - chime in with your own! Appearence: A simple but effective visual break from the previous Doctors would be a beard. They've been considered a bit dodgy since the 50s Beatniks, but in the eyes of his own people (at least in Deadly Assassin) this middling dilettante student was always a bit suspect, mixing it up with the unwashed multitudes of space and time. Besides, kids love Santa, Gandalf and Obi Wan! Wardrobe: Whether elegant or ragamuffin, let's see something a bit odd and out of kilter with the everyday. No noisy sartorial statements akin to a sandwich board saying "look at me, I'm weird and mysterious!", please. Abilities: He's older, but let's make him a bit more proactive and less inclined to rely on luck or putting his companions in harm's way to get out of physical peril. Yes, I'm talking about a return of a Doctor who's handy with his fists. Be it Venusian aikido or what have you, in self defense and only as a last resort to incapacitate an aggressor. Equipment: I think the sonic wand has had its day - it's strayed too far from its original intent, and is symptomatic of a jokey tone that undermines serious scrapes. Instead, let's have the Doctor solve his problems with smarts, resourcefulness, cunning and charm - but at the same time, leave open the real prospect of at least sometimes, being in a spot he can't get out of. Maybe give this new Doctor a vehicle, as he's more impatient and eager to get stuck in plus feeling his years a lot more. Something that takes up little space and can go where needed - perhaps a souped up motorcycle? Companions: For goodness sake, somewhere other than present day England!!! And a bloke, please. Preferably non-Caucasian. As for the dynamic, well the Jamie-Doctor pairing was a lovely thing. But there's lots of alternatives worth considering. The slow build we saw with Turlough gives food for thought. Perhaps the Doctor could take on board an assassin, a would-be enemy, to show him the wonders of the universe and prove to him that there's more to life than just killing - all the while he and the audience know the new companion could be playing a double game. Recurring Villains/Monsters/Places: Let's dial this back a bit. How many times did Tom's Doctor meet up with the Daleks? Twice! And only once for the Cybermen. Seasons and eras are shorter now, so let's bear that in mind and see more new places, faces, dangers. Only use the old if you have something very fresh and very good to make them worth seeing again, that you simply can't do with an entirely new and surprising alternative. Pertwee never met the Cybermen or the Ice Warriors, but his era was hardly bereft of interesting foes. Tone: Let's go for a bit more reserved, a bit less accessible. There needs to be less of the impression that the Doctor is just another human but one who can do tricks. He should have an air of authority and gravitas but still be able to whoop with joy, albeit in hopefully unexpected and surprising ways. We should find exploring what makes this one tick a little more of a discovery than the last few, where the mystery was of the order of "will he kiss the girl" or "does he mind being a mass murderer" or "when will he cry next"? To keep him mysterious - don't keep banging on about his origins, what he did during the War, any of that. Point the camera away from his inner psyche, to keep him an enigma!
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Post by Will Weller on Nov 30, 2013 7:58:31 GMT
I'm sure that Peter Capaldi is going to make a fantastic 12th doctor. Also, looking forward to the Christmas special this year.
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Post by Paul McDermott on Nov 30, 2013 9:44:18 GMT
Additional Musings - Wardrobe (continued): The time of the Victorians is long past. Let's see some new lines develop in the Doctor's apparel - shorts. I'm thinking something in the knickerbocker department, with knee length socks. Given he's the oldest, something that's traditionally been a young man's article of clothing might be cute. Persona: No more catch phrases! Let the Doctor's persona reach us through who he is, what he does - not the repetition of an inane soundbite. The early Doctors didn't need it, neither does Capaldi.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 10:34:19 GMT
I only remember Bill Hartnell being the doctor, I don't recall episodes ... but the image I had of him was this mysterious, ambivalent person, who wasn't obviously a force for Good (though my 6 year old self wouldn't have put it like that). Reserved is good. Idiosyncracies come out of the person, they're not bolt-ons, so it would be nice to let this new Doctor unfold as a personality. I like the character-centric feel of the new Who, it adds more dimension to a temporally multiple dimensional being anyway. Unless he was The Doctor from Stoke-On-Trent, all those experiences from An Unearthly Child onwards would have left their mark on him, all those regenerations ... it's good that this gets expressed through the stories now ... he doesn't exist in isolation.
Capaldi needs to do an actorly job with the Doctor. He needs to invest some of himself in him, examine past Doctors and how they reached the point where he is now ... because where he's been has a direct influence on where he is now; it lead him there ... start from that point and move on from it.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Nov 30, 2013 10:35:12 GMT
Well is this really appropriate for a 'missing episodes' forum....?
why not ponder all this on one of the umpteen Doctor Who forums...?
Beyond asking that, on the general point of the 'Doctor Who' programme & looking at the style of the 50th anniversary episode I doubt if the current show will be able to alter much if at all without losing it's core 'yoof' audience which Russell T. Davies & then Steven Moffat have firmly aimed it at since it came back in 2005
If you try to make it a deeper more older style show presumably those with brief attention spans who want/expect a 'cool' Doc will lose interest - a fair chunk of Tennant lovers who found The Doctor 'sexy' gave up when he left, and as a character there is little overall besides a change of costume to tell between the trio they have had since 2005
- he might be less 'lairy' and more 'talky' but his proactive role and stance in the show has remained identical, with the same old over focus on the central character of the obligatory 'feisty young female' companion etc
....with The Doctor character almost a sidekick, any male companions made clueless clods, plus a number of either panto or zoo based foes, older foes reduced in credibility & menace (lumbering Cybermen, Fatleks, inept vast CGI Dalek invasion forces that all suddenly vanish etc)...plus loads of 'Timey Whimey' claptrap forever re-setting the past or undoing a silly convaluted plotline in order to get the same old crowd of writers out of the corners they find they have written themselves into....once again
You would need a total break, then to start with a fresh canvas to properly rebuild the show aiming it at a more discerning viewer with larger attention span, and unless BBC allow that - which with all the related memorabilia associated with the show seems doubtful given how they have allowed the character & show to become - I really can't see anything beyond "more of the same old", and if/when the viewing figures eventually drop off, with the show running out of steam, it being 'rested' again...note how it's actual time 'on air' has been steadily reducing over the past few years
If the main bunch of current show fans don't take to the (for them) concept of an 'older Doctor' then I would think BBC won't stick with it for too long as a section withing the upper reaches of the BBC have never liked the programme (now or then). and we hear various rumours of problems behind the scenes re Moffat & BBC Cardiff, while a number of production staff including a Exec Producer have departed the show in recent years amid some controversy it appears.
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Post by Paul McDermott on Nov 30, 2013 12:59:03 GMT
Why raise this here, Patrick? Why do I think it's of interest to our sort particularly, and something we can usefully contribute to dialogue about? I'll try to explain. What gives me hope for the future of the series is the most incredible story for Missing Episodes fans, perhaps ever. Not only did we get two complete (yeah Web 3, I know) Season 5 stories in October, but they outsold pretty much anything worldwide from day of release. That's significant volume, significant demand! It means it's not just old farts like me or scholarly types or completists. It's all sorts of folk buying, ie the general public. The New Series has a particular focus, a particular style. They've hewed to it for nearly a decade now. Yet the same target audience just helped Enemy and Web to the top of the world charts. With their dollars, pounds and other currency units, these buyers have made a case for wanting Old Style Who that can't be ignored. Sure, there's the lure of seeing something new. But that's not all it is. It also shows an entirely different, antiquated (B&W!) style of the popular programme has mass appeal! Can the Beeb rely on an endless supply of new finds to dump on iTunes? Nope. So, if they are alert to the significance of this event, how can they hope to capitalize on it? We've kicked around the idea of cashing in on 60s love with merchandise and we've seen a little of that. More will surely come. But that's only going to stretch so far. What would offer broader opportunities is refocusing the New Series itself. The sales of Enemy and Web suggest that these viewers are open to variety in the format, if it's good. For many who downloaded them off iTunes, they may never have seen 60s Who before. There are new people here, and more and more are young folks big on the 60s eps. That many sales the world over are an encouraging sign that audience taste is broader than some may think/believe/fear, be they in the production office or elsewhere. It shouldn't be surprising to us, who've known how Who has changed since '63. But for others, it may bring renewed confidence that change is still possible, desired, in Who's best interest. That being so, and thinking of how the series has successfully reinvented itself in the past, I offered a few ideas to my fellows about the way ahead. Maybe Capaldi has stepped into the dramatic equivalent of a cement overcoat, and the Beeb will refuse to pay any attention to what the sales of Enemy and Web mean. Given how much the series serves as a global ambassador for the Corporation however, I'm not entirely convinced that this is going to be the case. And if enough of us are publicly thinking about the links between the old and the new, encouraging the relevant parties to be daring and traditional, the better our odds for a bright future.
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Post by Simon Jailler on Nov 30, 2013 13:39:30 GMT
Peter Capaldi is a genuine classic era Who fan - I trust him to get the character and look just right. As for the story lines and scripts.....I sincerely wish he has a big say in those too. I can't tell nowadays whether the current audience genuinely 'get' the story line as I'm left non plussed and frankly baffled by them, Mark Gatiss excused.
The new interest in returned classic episodes should come to the attention of Mr Moffat (iTunes sales) and I hope the release of EOTW and WOF open up the eyes of the 'newer' generation to the wonders of those old stories - the acting, plotting over 4 episodes and making the the very most out of very limited budgets and available technology.
Fans of classic Who and Missing Episodes can't help but compare new era with old; it's all part of the fun of being a Doctor Who fan.
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Post by Patrick Coles on Nov 30, 2013 13:50:49 GMT
Yeah but re Paul's reply, it's still nothing to do with 'missing episodes' is it...?
Your thread idea is all about the future of Doctor Who (which isn't missing) & it's potential direction...thus would be relevent to a general Dr.Who forum...that was my first point which still stands, for all your 'explanation'
Re that future, I am happy to agree the reaction to the two recently 'found' Patrick Troughton stories is very encouraging, and hopefully more have been found & will follow
HOWEVER, bear in mind that the BBC have never been bothered about how "popular" something might be - look at them axing the Dr.Who show in the 80's and they axed the popular 'Paul Temple' series that was very big in Europe, plus 'Z Cars', 'Come Dancing', 'Show Jumping', 'The Good Old Days' etc each of which had a loyal core audience but BBC knew better.....or not !
On the point of the programme's style I doubt if BBC Wales will give up pandering to the (presumed) 'yoof' market - most BBC shows even their documentaries now are firmly aimed at their idea of 'cool kidz' who forever have one eye on their mophones or tablets with the attention span of a fly....so I really can't see the Dr.Who show any time soon getting more traditional in style of a more logical story narrative in episodic TV with cliff hanger endings etc
I think unless there is a major change at the BBC we will simply get more of the same - as in essence we have between 2005 and 2013 - that is factors such as: 'Hollywooden epics scale CGI sets' apeing current big film ideas with loud bangs and explosive effects, dreadful OTT muzak with stirring choirs, endless pandering to the cult of celebrity, more vast CGI Dalek invasion fleets that all instantly (& conveniently) 'vanish', vast unseen back stories with great importance attached yet zilch real explanation, smug 'know all' females recurring, a 'feisty female' companion who takes centre stage, dopey male regulars, themes that are given great emphasis, then quickly dropped mid tale, plus slow 'talky' moments - supposed to be great drama, 'emo drivel' bits to make the emotionally insecure viewers all 'burst into tears' complete with silly slapstick bits like hanging out of Police boxes in a Harold Lloyd style as they speed along motorways or hang from choppers etc....same old, same old !
....when not having the Tardis tow the Titanic about through space, or moving the planet Earth with a (borrowed from Star Trek) Tractor beam....etc
- but the modern show is also of course a cash cow, readily based upon and forever using (deep rooted in the public mind) sixties creativity, that can be exploited for related product (tho' that has suffered some notable loss of interest over the past few years)
how that OTT approach could ever relate to the far more credible if just as unusual figure of The Doctor character who was a 'wanderer in the fourth dimension'...who 'walked in eternity' etc, the character who existed for three decades before being reduced to a farcical figure in order to be quietly dropped without formal cancellation by the BBC who were then most keen to lose it.. is hard to imagine
I think there will be more interest in 'missing' Hartnell & Troughton era stories, because they appeal to a FAR wider audience than today's modern TV caters for or aims at... I think that ALOT of those who buy the 'lost' stories on DVD, follow the Big Finish Audio adventures etc, ...and maybe even watched that 'Adventures in Space & Time' drama probably have 'given up' on Moffat's current version long ago !
I know Moffat IS attempting to bring the current version BACK into line with the original show (he's not helped by all that Davies earlier did to try to 'distance it' from it's past) but I think there are problems behind the scenes at BBC re the show (it's budget has been notably scaled back over time & we hear rumours of attempts to move the thing away from BBC Cardiff IF it is to continue for long....Peter Capaldi has only a 'one year' contract)
Re Peter Capaldi , I hope he does well...but look how they wasted Paul McGann, and also the likes of Derek Jacobi, John Sim, and Timothy Dalton etc in the current show...being a fine actor means nothing if they make you act like a total manic plonker - yes ?
Much now depends on the story quality of the next series - they need BETTER writers badly - and the modern audience reaction to the idea of having an 'older' Doctor actor who might not be 'cool' - absurd when you consider the show's origin - but that's a problem BBC have created for themselves by making the character ever younger....and a 'Sexy Doctor' etc !
For all the massive sales & orders for the DVDs & downloads of the recently recovered Patrick Troughton stories I wouldn't put too much in that aspect necessarily paving a better future for the current version of the show.
Would, say, the discovery of a previously unknown unissued mid sixties Beatles studio album...duly selling massively...of necessity do anything to boost sales of, say, Paul McCartney's latest effort if it was full of his idea of 'modern music' styles...?? - possibly but it's no guarantee...
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Post by Matthew Kurth on Nov 30, 2013 14:15:57 GMT
I'd just like to mention that I miss having Graeme Harper in the director rotation.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2013 14:21:45 GMT
Yeah but re Paul's reply, it's still nothing to do with 'missing episodes' is it...? Your thread idea is all about the future of Doctor Who (which isn't missing) & it's potential direction...thus would be relevent to a general Dr.Who forum...that was my first point which still stands, for all your 'explanation' As long as stays friendly, I'm happy for people to just chat generally about DW (it's only one thread, after all). Discussion shouldn't be too rigid.
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Post by Simon Jailler on Nov 30, 2013 14:34:26 GMT
Yeah but re Paul's reply, it's still nothing to do with 'missing episodes' is it...? Your thread idea is all about the future of Doctor Who (which isn't missing) & it's potential direction...thus would be relevent to a general Dr.Who forum...that was my first point which still stands, for all your 'explanation' As long as stays friendly, I'm happy for people to just chat generally about DW (it's only one thread, after all). Discussion shouldn't be too rigid. Thanks Laurence - I'd prefer to respond to a friendly bit of banter that interests me rather than ignore it for being a bit off message. Sorry, can't resist And I'm not disagreeing with you or trying to defend myself, Patrick. Thanks for your sharing your thoughts and your point of view. I'd love to be posting and reading about more returned missing episodes but it can't be Christmas everyday.
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Post by James Bellerby on Nov 30, 2013 14:56:55 GMT
I would say that Peter Capaldi is more than likely going to be a short term Doctor. He will bring back the Time Lords in order to resolve the issue that The Doctor is on his 13th and final regeneration, and they want to the series to continue beyond this.
In terms of the shows target audience, it has always been a children's show, but I would agree that stories and plot lines seemed to have been far better developed in the classic era than in the current era. I think what has changed a lot is the influx of US TV in the UK which has resulted in a change viewing habits. we now almost expect the story to be wrapped up in 45 minutes but for there to be some kind of season arc hinted at from the outset but not revealed until the finale. I would say the influence of US TV is global and this has undoubtedly helped the BBC sell the show to so many countries. For that reason I can't see why the BBC or the production team would want to change the format and content too much
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Post by edhipkiss on Nov 30, 2013 15:21:37 GMT
The problems for me are, although I still watch and enjoy "Nu-Who", are 3 fold:
1. The 45 minute format. It's just too short to properly develop ideas. There are exceptions of course (the excellent "Blink", and "The Eleventh Hour" which does a nice concise job of introducing Matt Smith's Doctor), but it's the 2 parters that work best for me as they have more time to develop their ideas and characters. More 2 parters please - we don't all have a 3 second attention span and I for one really miss the brilliant cliffhangers that I enjoyed from T Baker to McCoy back in my childhood.
2. The writers. I like Moffat as a writer, and I think he's exactly the right person to oversee the show. My problem is the writers who continually get commissioned for the series. Outside of Mark Gatiss and Paul Cornell (and why has Robert Shearman not been used since Season 1 / 27?) they are mostly awful. It's no coincidence that Chris Chibnall's episodes all happen to be awful, and the Luther guy whose name I forget is horribly out of his depth (and Luther itself, based on the single series I've seen of it, is terribly over-rated but that's a whole other discussion). There really needs to be a concerted effort to open the show up to other writers rather than mates of the producer (and Davies was just as guilty - it's not purely Moffat) - ideally a mix of professional Who fans (some of the Big Finish writers maybe) and established TV writers (would someone of Hugo Blick (The Shadow Line)'s calibre be interested for example). For all those clamouring to be rid of Moffat as Exec Producer I genuinely fear for the show should that happen. Aside from Gatiss, who, realistically would be a good fit? Please not Chris bloody Chibnall. And God help us if Paul Cornell took over - female Doctor anyone?
3. The music. For all the plaudits that Murray "I think he's a genius" Gold gets, to my ears Doctor Who these days just sound the same as every other drama on TV. Where's all the amazing experimental electronic music that underpinned the show in the 70s and 80s? The sooner Gold moves on and they get someone in who will take a few chances to make the show stand out a bit the better. And yes, I know the mark of a good piece of incidental music is when you DON'T notice the music, or at least it doesn't detract from the story, but as I say it feels really bland at the moment, and has done since 2005.
Just my opinion!
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Post by dougp on Nov 30, 2013 15:35:22 GMT
The speculation that Capaldi will be short term is wide of the mark to me.
I expect him to do at least two seasons and two Christmas episodes.
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Post by edhipkiss on Nov 30, 2013 15:42:25 GMT
The speculation that Capaldi will be short term is wide of the mark to me. I expect him to do at least two seasons and two Christmas episodes. Exactly. If you were a massive Doctor Who fan and got offered the part I really cannot see you thinking "1 year then I'm off". Especially if, as was reported, he's always wanted the part and thought his chance had gone as he was perceived as being "too old". Surely to then get offered it you'd make the most of it? It's not like Eccleston who had no emotional attachment to the series and didn't give a toss about doing more than the bare minimum.
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